Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLXXVI



[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html#Peter_F ]

Date: Sun, November 17, 2013 12:16 pm     (answered 19 November 2013)
From: "Peter F."
Subject: Stanton Peele's newest book

Recover!
http://www.amazon.com/Recover-Thinking-Reclaim-PERFECT-Program/dp/0738216755/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384707032&sr=1-1&keywords=peele+recover

Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Scientist 1, Centre for Addiction and Mental Health
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong
Co-Author: The History of Problem Gambling: Temperance, substance abuse, medicine, and metaphors
http://www.peterferentzy.com

Hi again, Peter,

Oh yes. Thanks for the tip. If it's by Stanton Peele, we know it will be good.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Imagine how people will interact with each other when they know they
**     cannot harm another person, place, condition or thing without harming
**     themselves.  Imagine the difference when people, everywhere, accept
**     the divine truth:  as they give, so shall they receive.
**       —  (Mayan) Don Alejandro Cirilo Perez Oxlaj





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html#Tom_H ]

Date: Sun, November 17, 2013 7:26 pm     (answered 19 November 2013)
From: "Tom H."
Subject: Personal Question

Agent Orange looks like Jesus needing a styled haircut and some better fitting clothes, if he has any intentions of women in AA groups wanting to 13th step him. I am fairly handsome, and clean cut and dress well. I allowed myself to be taken advantage of by the 40-somethings tank top cougar women in the meetings. These ladies had some serious sobriety time too. Most of my big book learning took place naked in bed with these female sponsors who wanted to help me remain sober. I went from a hopeless, helpless, desperate, alcoholic to a womanizing slut for a guy with no morals whatsoever. Today, I am heading toward my 14th year of sobriety and I feel good. As I say, "Keep coming back..... It works if you work it and there are a lot of cougar tank-top oldies available that need some loving.

Hello Tom,

Thanks for the laugh. Really, if I have to totally change my appearance to get a woman interested in me, then she must be a rather shallow person who might not be worth the bother.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion"
**        ==  A.A. "Tradition" 11





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html#Janet_McC ]

Sent To Gmail:
Date: Nov 3, 2013
From: Janet F. McC.
Subject: Your anonymity in producing WHAT'S NOT GOOD FOR AA leaves many questions.

It is easy for humans to condemn, criticize, analyze, and tear apart. Awareness is often suggested to be the first step in creating change.

But the ultimate trick is to move beyond awareness and find the alternatives, test them, subject them to the same critical analysis and promote what makes this a better world for all life.

Doesn't sustaining life require balance and harmony? Where is the other side of your sword of commentary about AA.

janet f. mcc. m.ed.
Independent Education Consultant
Santa Fe NM "City Different"

Hello Janet,

Thanks for the letter. The reason that I didn't answer it sooner is because you sent it to my Gmail address. I don't use that address for anything but a spam-catcher, because Google reads all email that comes or goes through Gmail, in order to target ads. Any letter to Gmail may go unread for months.

Now, about your subject line: Isn't it funny how anonymity is supposedly a holy virtue when A.A. members do it, but it's somehow a fault or a wrong when I do it? Is that hypocrisy, or what?

The fact is, I abandoned anonymity many years ago. My birth name was, and still is, Terrance Hodgins, and I live in rural Oregon. You can find the rest of the autobiographical information here:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters368.html#Michael_B2

Now, about your other complaints: You read the file What's Not Good About A.A.?, and totally ignored everything in the file. Doesn't it bother you that Alcoholics Anonymous is a lying fraud that foists an old pro-Nazi cult religion on sick people as a quack cure for alcohol addiction and alcohol abuse?

You complained that it is easy to criticize. Well, it's also easy to sell quackery and fraud as a cure for a phony "spiritual disease", too. And it's even easier for me to criticize when my opponent is such a criminal, doing such harm to sick people.

This is spectacularly wrong pseudo-spiritual nonsense:

But the ultimate trick is to move beyond awareness and find the alternatives...

Move beyond awareness? Into blindness, unconsciousness, and stupidity? Moving beyond awareness is what we used to do when we drank alcohol until we passed out.

The real answer is, "Learn the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Now to give you the benefit of the doubt, it sounds like what you are trying to say is that we should test the various suggested cures for alcohol abuse and alcohol addiction, and see what works. That has been done.

Here is the list of methods of recovery where Prof. William Miller and his crew at the Center for Alcohol, Substance Abuse and Addictions at the University of New Mexico rated 48 various methods of recovery:

http://www.behaviortherapy.com/ResearchDiv/whatworks.aspx

Note that A.A. and "twelve-step facilitation" are so far down the list that you have to look for them, at numbers 37 and 38 in effectiveness. Also, they have a very negative rating.

(You can read more discussion of that list here:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters177.html#what_works)

When A.A. was tested, it was a total failure. Every time:

  1. Dr. Brandsma found that A.A increased binge drinking.
  2. Dr. Ditman found that A.A increased the rate of rearrests.
  3. Dr. Walsh found that A.A increased the cost of hospitalization of alcoholics.
  4. Drs. Orford and Edwards found that having a doctor talk to the patient for just one hour was just as effective as a whole year of A.A.-based treatment.
  5. Dr. Vaillant, who went on to become an A.A. trustee, found that A.A. did not increase sobriety in alcoholics at all, not even a little bit, but it did raise the death rate in alcoholics.
  6. So what's the actual A.A. cure rate? The answers are here and here and here.

Then, you finished with an appeal to relativism:

Doesn't sustaining life require balance and harmony? Where is the other side of your sword of commentary about AA.

"Harmony and balance" don't mean that we should just smile and allow the criminals to rob, rape, and kill, in the interests of fairly representing "the other side of the sword". There is such a thing as right and wrong. And allowing criminals to hurt sick people with quack medicine is wrong. Allowing criminals to sexually exploit sick women is wrong. Allowing criminals to deceive sick people with an old pro-Nazi cult religion is wrong.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     If alcoholism is really a disease, then A.A. sponsors are
**     guilty of practicing medicine without a license. They are
**     also guilty of treating a life-threatening illness without
**     having any medical education or training.  They have never
**     gone to medical school, and never done an internship or
**     residency, and yet they presume to be qualified to make
**     life-or-death decisions in the patients' treatment. That
**     is what you call quackery.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html#Eric_F ]

Sent To Gmail:
Date: Nov 7, 2013     (answered 19 November 2013)
From: Eric F.
Subject: Your Sick

People die from alcoholism AA gives them a chance and the book says that we are not the only solution .why would bash an institution that's only goal is to help people.they don't gain monetarily so that's not their motive unlike so called treatment centers. AA doesn't and never has used courts or doctors to push their message they do that of their own free will. Is the success rate low yes it is but not any lower than anything else and higher than not trying it at all. The government claimed AA a church not AA. I'd love to meet you in person instead of you hiding on the Internet. it is a spiritually program for those who want it.I agree courts shouldn't force people there because they can't prove you even went . They can't call and find out if you understand the word anonymous . Was bill Wilson perfect no he wasn't was he a Saint no and he didn't claim to be. If you'd ever seen the hope return to people's life you sick bastard unless your a psychopath ? You wouldn't bash AA you'd praise it you sick fuck

Sent from my iPhone

Hello Eric,

Thanks for the letter. The reason that I didn't answer it sooner is because you sent it to my Gmail address. I don't use that address for anything but a spam-catcher, because Google reads all email that comes or goes through Gmail, in order to target ads. Any letter to Gmail may go unread for months.

Your letter is a mess of denial. Yes, you are in denial. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

  • Now, yes, people die from alcohol addiction and alcohol abuse. No, A.A. does not save them. A.A. does not "give them a chance."

  • Yes, the book says that "we are not the only solution". But Bill Wilson also wrote that A.A. was the only solution. It's a standard A.A. bait-and-switch trick. Bill Wilson started it. First, say that "we aren't the only way" in order to sound moderate and reasonable to outsiders, and then tell the newcomers that they will die without A.A.:

  • A.A. uses courts and coercion to get new members every day. Here is the official A.A. position paper on the subject:
    http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/mg-05_coopwithcourt.pdf

  • This is exactly backwards:

    Is the success rate low yes it is but not any lower than anything else and higher than not trying it at all.

    When A.A. was tested by Dr. George E. Vaillant, who loves A.A. and went on to be a Trustee of A.A. for many years, he found that A.A. was the worst way to treat alcohol abuse. Nothing produced a higher death toll.

    Here is the list of methods of recovery where Prof. William Miller and his crew at the Center for Alcohol, Substance Abuse and Addictions at the University of New Mexico rated 48 various methods of recovery:

    http://www.behaviortherapy.com/ResearchDiv/whatworks.aspx

    Note that A.A. and "twelve-step facilitation" are so far down the list that you have to look for them, at numbers 37 and 38 in effectiveness. Also, they have a very negative rating.

    (You can read more discussion of that list here:
    http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters177.html#what_works)

  • You wrote:

    The government claimed AA a church not AA.

    Wrong. The U.S. courts have declared that A.A. is a religion, and engages in religious activities.

  • RE:

    it is a spiritually program for those who want it.

    Actually, it's a very superstitious program for those who want superstitions, like that you can worship anything as your "god" or "higher power", and nevertheless, old "H.P." will perform a miracle for you — make you quit drinking alcohol — and even talk to you in séances.

  • We almost agree on this:

    I agree courts shouldn't force people there because they can't prove you even went . They can't call and find out if you understand the word anonymous .

    Actually, the reason that courts should not force people to go to A.A. is because it is unConstitutional and against the law of the land. A.A. is a religion, and it is against the laws of the United States of America to force anyone to participate in any religion.

  • This is minimization and denial:

    Was bill Wilson perfect no he wasn't was he a Saint no and he didn't claim to be.

    Bill Wilson jabbered "We are not saints" to explain away his crimes, but he also put on airs of being a holy man:


    "Bill Wilson, converting a fawning moron."

    Bill Wilson posing for a staged "Man On The Bed" publicity photograph, where Bill allegedly performed miraculous faith healings, making the drunks "pick up their beds and walk."
    Notice the cross on the wall. This photograph was very carefully staged for best effect.

  • And then you finished your letter in the standard Steppers' manner: closing slander and slurs:

    If you'd ever seen the hope return to people's life you sick bastard unless your a psychopath ? You wouldn't bash AA you'd praise it you sick fuck

    And there we see the truth about A.A. "spirituality". That's how cult members react to criticism of their favorite sacred cow.

    And yes, I have seen the hope return to people's eyes. Most often, after they escaped from the madness of A.A.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     Note that any- and everything that keeps you from appreciating
**     your spiritual source is an impediment. This particularly
**     includes relying on someone else or some organization without
**     examining the truths that they insist you believe.
**       ==  Dr. Wayne Dyer, Inspiration Perpetual Flip Calendar, 19 December





October 6, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Gus and Canada Geese friends
Gus and Canada Geese friends
The goose on the right is crippled, and cannot fly. If you look closely, you will see that the feathers on its right wingtip are worn down to sticks. That is from dragging and rubbing on the ground. That is because the goose broke its wing long ago, and it healed crooked.

Two of those geese are crippled that way, and cannot fly south for the winter. So they hang out with Gus. The fourth goose seems to be a faithful mate who will not leave her (or his) crippled partner.

Gus's wife is gone. I think that the weasel or ermine or mink or whatever it is got her last spring, when she was sitting on her nest, trying to incubate a bunch of eggs. I don't know if Gus will take a new mate next spring.

Gus and Canada Geese friends
Gus and Canada Geese friends

Gus and Canada Geese friends
Gus and Canada Geese friends

Egret
Egret. A grainy shot from far away, very magnified.

[More bird photos below, here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html#Bradley ]

Sent To Gmail:
Date: Oct 22, 2013     (answered 19 November 2013)
From: W. Bradley S.
Subject: AA

Greetings:

I'm just curious as to why you're so anti-AA. I've been going to more than 4 meetings a week for over 8 years and I've never experienced any of the negatives you seem to think typify the program. AA didn't foster "learned helplessness" in me. However, it did help me to stop destroying my life after years of self-help efforts had failed miserably and left me literally a shell of a person. I have heard that some people find the program restrictive and controlling. However, it's never been so for me. Quite the opposite, it's been liberating and has expanded the horizons of my life in every direction. My hope for Recovery was that it would simply remove all the negatives that addiction had brought to my life. It certainly did that, but it did so much more too. In Recovery I found, and now have, a better, fuller, more abundant life than I ever knew was possible.

Brad

Hello Brad,

Thanks for the letter. The reason that I didn't answer it sooner is because you sent it to my Gmail address. I don't use that address for anything but a spam-catcher, because Google reads all email that comes or goes through Gmail, in order to target ads. They have no respect for our privacy, so I don't use it. Any letter to Gmail may go unread for months.

Now, about the body of your letter: Apparently, you are going to some other meetings than A.A. meetings. Every A.A. meeting that I ever went to began by reading the plastic laminated dogma that says:

  • "[We] Admitted we were powerless over alcohol."

  • "Those who do not recover are ... men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way."
    The Big Book, 3rd and 4th Edition, page 58.

  • And then there are the slogans:
    • "Don't Drink and Don't Think!"
    • "Don't drink, don't think, and go to meetings.
    • "Don't drink, don't think, and don't get married."
    • "Stop Your Stinkin' Thinkin'."
    • "Stinkin' thinkin' leads to stinkin' drinkin'!"
    • "Your thinking is alcoholic."
    • "Your best thinking got you here."
    • "The three most dangerous words for an alcoholic — 'I've been thinking'"
    • "You have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem."
    • "People who think they know it all are very irritating to those of us who do."
    • "Don't go into your mind alone; it's not a safe neighborhood."
    • "Don't go in your head alone. It's a dangerous neighborhood."
    • "When we think we are in control of our own lives we are living in denial."
    • "When a person tries to control their drinking they have already lost control."
    • "When we couldn't dominate, control, or manipulate, we would ask for terms and conditions."
    • "Some A.A.'s are so successful that they turn out to be almost as good as they used to think they were when they were drinking."
    • "I know I'm in trouble when I start thinking I can run my own life."

So, apparently, you found a wonderful organization that is not at all like Alcoholics Anonymous. Lucky you.

Oh, by the way, since you've been going to your meetings for 8 years now, you should know the answers to these questions: Could you please tell us what the cure rate of your organization is? Out of each 100 newcomers, how many get a year of sobriety? And what are the A.A. divorce rate, suicide rate, and death rate? Thank you.

(HINT: the answers are here and here and here. And here, and here, and here.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     Follow the dictates of a Higher Power and you will presently live in a
**     new and wonderful world, no matter what your present circumstances!
**     William G. Wilson, The Big Book, page 100.
*
**     "Yes, Higher Power Dracula, I surrender myself to you, to do with me
**     what Thou wilt, and I promise to go bite at least three newcomers
**     and turn them into our unholy kind."


[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html#Bradley2 ]

Date: Wed, November 20, 2013 12:01 pm     (answered 23 November 2013)
From: "W. Bradley S."
Subject: RE: AA

Thanks for your response, Orange. Interesting that the same program can be seen as so bad from one vantage point and so good from another. I think I understand what you find objectionable about AA. If you don't mind me asking, what is it about those objections that compels you to devote the time and attention to your efforts? If you do mind me asking, please know that no offense was intended.

Brad

Hello again, Brad,

Thanks for the response.

Seeing something from "one vantage point or another" is the propaganda trick called Escape via Relativism. It implies that all viewpoints are equal in value or merit.

For example, as if the Nazi opinion of Jews should be considered just as accurate as a Hassidic Rabbi's view of Jews. Or, the KKK opinion of Black people is just as valid as Dr. Martin Luther King's view of Black people.

The idea that we should represent all viewpoints equally is another expression of that propaganda trick.

Well, all viewpoints are not created equal. Some viewpoints are based on nothing but misinformation, prejudice, ignorance, and the desire to believe. Sometimes even hatred and anger. Other viewpoints are based on true information and careful judgement. And it is our job to figure out which are which. It is our job to find out what is true.

My big objection to A.A. is that it is a fraud that does not help people. They lie and say that it does. They being every meeting by repeating the lie about "RARELY have we seen a person fail, who has thoroughly followed our path." But that is a lie.

I have seen the people die. I've seen the struggling people misled by A.A. misinformation and quackery. I have seen people hurt, not helped, by A.A.

That is why I am so opposed to it.

I am reminded of what an anonymous correspondent wrote in years ago:

**    A flawed idea that AA is built upon:  The idea that a deeply flawed person
**    will cure another deeply flawed person.  A dynamic fraught with peril.
**      == Anonymous

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     There is no right way to do the wrong thing!


[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html#Bradley3 ]

Date: Sat, November 23, 2013 6:35 pm     (answered 27 November 2013)
From: "W. Bradley S."
Subject: Re: AA

Well, AA saved my life and I have seen it save others. I have seen people who seemed doomed and absolutely hopeless completely restored.

I read your "The Lizard Brain Addiction Monster." Good stuff. I have long believed pretty much everything you said there. At a meeting on Friday with Drug Court "kids" I was talking about how it had been a great help to me in early recovery to think of my addiction as a nasty, mean monster that I had locked in a cage — it would try anything to trick me into letting it out, or feeding it a bit, but my job was to keep it locked up. The rule was "don't feed it, don't pet it, don't talk to it, and don't ever let it out — not even for a minute." I still follow those rules, but the monster has long been well contained and certain to stay that way as long as I don't open the cage and feed it.

The last rehab I went to (Bridging the Gaps in Winchester, VA) was driven by a concern/belief that the majority of addicts/alcoholics don't get saved by AA alone. They were really big on diet and amino acid therapy a la Dr. Charles Gant.

Take care, Orange. I'm glad you found what works for you.

Brad

PS I quite smoking on 3/7/10. Having quit using almost 5 years before that, I knew in my heart that no matter what I couldn't smoke even a little. A free on-line PDF book that really helped me was "Never Take Another Puff."

Hello Brad,

Thanks for the response.

When you say that A.A. saved your life, you are assuming a cause-and-effect relationship where none exists. That is a common logical failing. "My mother gave me chicken soup when I had a cold, and then I got over the cold, so chicken soup cures the common cold."

Similarly, "I went to some A.A. meetings and quit drinking, so A.A. made me quit drinking." What about, "My desire to quit drinking and have a better life made me quit drinking and also caused me to go to some A.A. meetings."?

In order to reliably establish cause-and-effect relationships, it is necessary to do Randomized Longitudinal Controlled Studies.

Still, I'm glad to hear that you are doing well and are getting healthy. The quitting smoking too is great. That makes a huge difference in your health. Congratulations. And I'll have to check out "Never Take Another Puff".

I'm glad to hear that you liked "The Lizard Brain Addiction Monster", and could relate to it. The knowledge in that page was a huge help to me in my first couple of years off of alcohol — and also off of cigarettes. It was a revelation to me to realize that the addictive mechanism that urged me to have a drink was also the same monster that was urging me to smoke a cigarette. He would even use the same lines, like, "It's okay to have just one... We've got it under control now. Just one won't hurt." (No matter what "just one" was.)

I don't know anything about Dr. Charles Gant. That is another area to investigate.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "People always come up to me and say that my smoking
**        is bothering them... Well, it's killing me!"
**           ==   Wendy Liebman





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html#Dave ]

Date: Oct 15, 2013     (answered 19 November 2013)
From: dave
Subject: What is your deal?

If you don't like AA then don't go. I like AA because my life is better for it. My health, marriage, relationships, occupation, self worth. etc. Do I agree with everything in AA ? No. I say it at meetings too. I don't believe in Bill's spiritual axiom. I don't blindly take my sponsor's advice. I'm in a group that is loose and open. We just don't drink and try to help each other. I also love that no matter where I go in the country there is a really nice group of friends there to welcome me. Something you don't have.

Hello Dave,

Thanks for the letter. The reason that I didn't answer it sooner is because you sent it to my Gmail address. I don't use that address for anything but a spam-catcher, because Google reads all email that comes or goes through Gmail, in order to target ads. They have no respect for our privacy, so I don't use it. Any letter to Gmail may go unread for months.

Now, about your letter: It's all fine and well that you are happy with your favorite meeting group. It's a free country and you can join any religion that you wish. And you can believe almost anything that you wish.

Congratulations for getting your act together and quitting drinking. Really. You did it, not them.

The problem is that A.A. does not actually work as a cure for alcohol addiction or alcohol abuse, and 75% of the treatment centers in the USA sell 12-Step "treatment" as a quack cure. And courts sentence people to the phony A.A. religion that is really Buchmanism, which is an old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties. That is why I criticize it.

Alcoholics Anonymous treatment of alcohol addiction and alcohol abuse actually raises the death rate in alcoholics. It does not lower it or save their lives. That is why I criticize it.

So, can you answer these questions? Can you please tell us what the cure rate of A.A. is? Out of each 100 newcomers, how many get a year of sobriety? And what are the A.A. divorce rate, suicide rate, and death rate? Thank you.

(HINT: the answers are here and here and here. And here, and here, and here.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The principles of Washington's farewell address are still sources
**     of wisdom when cures for social ills are sought. The methods of
**     Washingtons's physicians, however, are no longer studied.
**         == Thurman Arnold





October 6, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Pelicans
A flock of Pelicans
If you look closely, you can see a black fishing bird, like a Grebe, sitting on the post in the water on the left side of the picture.

UPDATE: I think that fishing bird is a Double-Crested Cormorant.

Pelicans
A pair of Pelicans

Pelicans

Pelicans
Pelicans grabbing for fish

[More pelican photos here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html#Anti_Denial ]

Date: Wed, November 20, 2013 5:39 pm     (answered 23 November 2013)
From: Anti-Denial
Subject: Personal attacks

Dear Orange,

I heard your interview with Monica and loved it.

This is Anti-Denial and I wanted to bring something to your attention and get your thoughts. It seems like an overzealous forum member Cause and Effect has put a disclaimer on everyone of her posts that says.

"Disclaimer: The beliefs and actions of Jim Battle and AntiDenial do not
necessarily represent the majority of those on the Orange-Papers Forum.
Others will be added to this list as deemed necessary."

Who is Cause and Effect to say this and basically attempt to blackball me and anyone else who might not agree with her gay and religious views? Also threatening to add people to the list is intimidating others to show support as well. Bully behavior. I know they tried to get me and Jim banned. I know you have stated you do not believe in personal attacks against other members. I feel having this on every single comment Cause and Effect makes is abusive. This was all because of my support of Jim speaking with churches that have AA meetings.

Thank you in advance for you taking my thoughts on the matter into consideration.

AntiDenial

Hello AntiDenial,

Thanks for the letter. I agree with you. The one thing that that is forbidden on the forum is personal attacks on others. So I'll have to discourage it.

I posted the following message in response to

I welcome all allies in the fight against A.A. hegemony. I don't care if they are religious believers or atheists. I think we can gain a lot by an alliance between the non-believers and the believers. We have a common enemy — the evil empire of Alcoholics Anonymous. The believers can be valuable assets because they can reach into the religious community where the atheists have few friends.

If we are to make any headway against A.A., we need people to clearly understand that this is not a battle of religious belief versus atheism. That's how A.A. promoters like to frame the argument: "Oh, you are just against A.A. because you are against God." It is important for the religious community to understand that A.A. is a heretical cult religion that is no friend of theirs.

Unfortunately, some people are easily fooled by a few choice words, like "God" or "Jesus". Just sprinkle those words in your rap, and a lot of people will immediately think that you must be a very moral and ethical person. Alas, it ain't necessarily so. Every election year, plenty of politicians prove that to be untrue.

One thing we are all agreed upon is the idea that it is bad to sell your soul to the Devil. Now you can take that as either literal or figurative, depending on your beliefs.

In the literal sense, someone agrees to be a servant of the Evil One in trade for getting a list of wishes granted, which is usually wealth, power, sex, and maybe longevity. Signing the contract in blood might be optional today.

In the figurative sense, someone sells his soul to the Devil by turning his back on what is good and right, in trade for wealth or power or something. The evil bankers and Wall Street billionaires who stole Grandma's house in order to get more billions of dollars come to mind. The recent Wall Street meltdown with packaged bad mortgages, and Credit Default Swaps and Collateralized Debt Obligations and tranches and worthless securitites supporting more worthless securities was all just a pyramid of evil and wrongs piled up on more evil and wrongs until the mountain of fraud reached to the sky, taller than the skyscrapers of Manhattan. It isn't hard to find a lot of men who sold their souls to the Devil in that mess. (And it's a national disgrace that they got bailed out rather than sent to prison.)

In A.A., the "spiritual deal" for recovery is basically just selling your soul to the Devil. You surrender control of your mind, your will, and your life to a vague "higher power" who can be anything from a rock or doorknob or Golden Calf or nameless spirit to a Group Of Drunks. Then you let "Higher Power" talk to you in a séance in Step 11 and tell you what to do. And then you go do whatever they tell you to do. Among other things, you promise to not tell the truth to newcomers, to only reveal the truth slowly, in order to lure them in, and you promise to go recruiting and get more souls for "our little fellowship". And you promise to always praise A.A. and the Founders, and never tell the truth about A.A.

When first contacted, most alcoholics just wanted to find sobriety, nothing else. They clung to their other defects, letting go only little by little. They simply did not want to get "too good too soon." The Oxford Groups' absolute concepts — absolute purity, absolute honesty, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love — were frequently too much for the drunks. These ideas had to be fed with teaspoons rather than by buckets. Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age,William G. Wilson, pages 74-75.

Fitz wanted a powerfully religious document; Henry and Jimmy would have none of it. They wanted a psychological book which would lure the reader in; when he finally arrived among us, there would then be enough time to tip him off about the spiritual character of our society.   ...   As umpire of these disputes, I was obliged to go pretty much down the middle, writing in spiritual rather than religious or entirely psychological terms. Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age(1957), William G. Wilson, page 17.

Umm, let's see, "lure the reader in." "Dole out the truth by teaspoons, not buckets." "Don't reveal too much truth too soon." Isn't that what Jesus taught?

Oh well, have a good day now.

Oh, as a parting note:

News Flash: Jesus Christ Banned From Analco Clubhouse

Jesus Christ has been declared persona non grata and banned from the local Anonymous Alcoholism clubhouse, informed sources say. "Well, that joker was always zapping people's water or coffee, and turning it into wine, and getting them drunk. We just couldn't have that. We know that traditionally the only requirement for membership in A.A. is a desire to quit drinking, but Jesus's behavior was simply not acceptable here."

When asked if he thought they would get into trouble for banning Jesus, an anonymous spokesperson said, "No, I don't think we will have any problems with it. Besides, most of us here pray to a bedpan or a doorknob as our Higher Power anyway, so Jesus won't really be missed."


Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "He who fights monsters should see to it that
**       he himself does not become a monster.
**      And if you gaze for long into an abyss,
**       the abyss gazes also into you."
**        ==  Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil





NEWS NOTE: 2013.11.25:

Wow! That was fast. Last month, the Orange Papers set a new record of 4 million hits in a single month. Now, this month, just last night, it broke 5 million, and if the numbers continue the way that they are going now, the total will go over 6 million hits before the end of this month. The record will go from 4 million hits up to 6 million in a single month.

I don't know what is going on. I'm not doing anything differently. The traffic just keeps going up and up.

Way back in on 2013.07.26, Btnben asked, "Is the Orange Papers doing a Bob Beamon?" He explained,

In the 1968 Summer Olympics in Mexico City Bob Beamon absolutely smashed the world long jump record by jumping 29' 2½". The previous record stood at 27' 6½" — so the world record never stood at 28 feet and something.

The OP monthly hits count has been close to the 3 million mark for some months now — it was just a matter of time before it happened. This month has gone crazy. It looks like the OP hits count is going to hit a new record over 4 million, never having had 3 million as the best monthly count.

Well, it didn't happen. We just barely missed reaching 4 million hits in July. Only missed it by 70,787, which equals a fraction of one day. So close. But the month of July contained a fluke: We got a huge spike of almost 1½ million hits in just a single day. I still don't know what happened there. I can only guess that someone must have given the web site a plug on nationwide TV or something. It took two more months before the regular usage finally reached 4 million hits per month. But now, 25 days later, it hits 5 million and it's climbing hard towards 6 million in the same month. If the numbers don't fall sharply, it will happen. Wow. So it looks like, this month the Bob Beamon thing is going to happen.

You can see the numbers at: http://www.orange-papers.info/webstats





October 6, 2013, Sunday, Fernhill Wetlands:

Pelicans
Pelicans

Pelicans
Pelicans

Pelicans
Pelicans

Pelicans
Pelicans, fishing
The Pelican with his head up in the air just caught a small fish. You can see the lump in his pouch.

That little black blob in the background is either a Northern Shoveler Duck or something like that, with his head down and his beak in the water, dabbling for water bugs.

[More Pelican photos here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html#Mikey ]

Date: Mon, November 25, 2013 11:17 am     (answered 27 November 2013)
From: "Mikey"
Subject: Dear Orange,

I read the cautionary heads-up re: Google reading my email... I'm not sure that I have anything contained herein that I need to keep hidden from them, but thanks for apprising me of the possibility.

I don't think that I've written you since around 2006 or 2007, and it was from different email addresses (mostly yahoo ones if my memory is serving me accurately). Omg, I am a paranoid person! But departing further and further from a superstitious person...

Your online book has served as an anchor to reality for me over the years, and even just knowing that the forum is there is a source of comfort, confidence, learning and rationality.

I wanted to reach back out. My name is Mikey, I've drank alcoholically, but I maintain that the "obsession" is a matter of choices and decision-making, not a matter of powerlessness.

I've allowed myself to be repeatedly harmed by the process of stepwork and sponsorship... yet I struggle (sometimes despairingly) with loneliness and alienation from my peers (other gay men) and I lead myself back into the WeHo rooms of AA looking for fellowship, companionship, and (admittedly) the possibility of a sexual liaison... which even at 34 and a handsome gay guy, I have major difficulty in securing. :-( This is mostly my own hang-up, really. Idk HOW, but I somehow found myself in that stuck-ness from Program.

I'm becoming a rational freethinking atheist, like some of my brothers in my family of origin. I never thought that I would be that, and at first, the prospect was so depressing and saddening to me. But there's so much more freedom and hope in seeing things as they really are vs. some made-up fairytale that doesn't reflect the truth of anything about ANYTHING... including a spiritual disease. That's no more true than exorcisms/demonic possession.

Anyway, I may be foolish to be spilling all of this to you... but you, whomever you are represent a beacon of sanity in a truly insane, torrential sea of ridiculous fascism and superstition regarding a disease they made up to label themselves and absolve themselves of any real responsibility.

The AA snake oil is like some yogi guru recommending pranic breath to a flock of famished people if food can't be secured or is unavailable. There HAS to be something better than that.

I wish that I had more people to surround myself with. If you feel so inclined to respond, I'd be most grateful. Anyway, thank you for your work & steadfastness in the orange papers. It can't be easy and sometimes must be pretty thankless.

I'm not in a position to donate any money right now... but also please let me know if there's any way that I can be of help or service! :-)

Warmest regards,
Mikey

Hello Mikey,

Thank you for the letter and all of the compliments. I wish that I felt as much like a pillar of sanity as you feel that I am. I feel more like an ordinary human with all of the emotions and conflicts that everybody else has. Oh well, so it goes.

Speaking of which, the loneliness and wanting companionship is perfectly normal and usual. That's what it means to be human. Humans are flocking birds. May I suggest that you just look in other places? (It reminds me of the song Looking for Love in All of the Wrong Places.) I don't know if they have any SMART or SOS meetings in your town, but here's the list, and you can check: http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-alt_list.html

Also, consider other groups that have nothing to do with alcohol or recovery. Book clubs, folk dance, coffee houses, theater clubs, political or social organizations come to mind.

Perhaps there is something that you can do to help the cause. Every so often, there is research to do. You know, just searching and investigating and gathering information. I spend lot of time doing that, and there is always more to do.

Also, there is publicity, like letters to the editor and comments to news articles on newspapers' web sites. Steppers keep up a non-stop campaign of publicity to promote their racket, and we have to counteract that. And there are letters to your Congresspersons and Senators, both State and Federal, to be written. They often really don't know what is going on. All that they ever heard was Stepper propaganda telling them that A.A. and N.A. are the best way to recover. So somebody has to tell them the truth.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     'Tis the only comfort of the miserable to have companions in their woes.
**     == Cervantes, Don Quixote, Part 1 [1605], Book III, Chap. 10





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html#Jim_B ]

Date: Mon, November 25, 2013 11:05 am     (answered 27 November 2013)
From: "Jim B."
Subject: My TV Program

Hi Orange,

Just wanted to let you know that I will be using your "What's Not Good About AA" article as an outline on my TV program titled "Alcoholics Anonymous Is Dangerous"

It will air in Tucson AZ and on the internet for 30 minutes, 2 days a week, and for 4 months. The title stay up on the screen at all times for the purpose of catching the attention of channel surfers.

I'm sure you appreciate how I expose what AA, Drug Courts, and Churches are doing. Just thought I'd let you know because your info is playing a big part in this. Thank you.

Jim B.,
The Anti-AA Preacher

Okay, Jim,

Thanks for the information. That sounds interesting. I'm glad to hear that you are spreading the word. Do you have a link or channel or time? Thanks.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     The diagnosis of drunkenness was that it was a disease for which the
**     patient was in no way responsible, that it was created by existing
**     saloons, and non-existing bright hearths, smiling wives, pretty caps
**     and aprons. The cure was the patent nostrum of pledge-signing, a
**     lying-made-easy invention, which like calomel, seldom had any
**     permanent effect on the disease for which it was given, and never
**     failed to produce another and a worse. Here the care created an
**     epidemic of forgery, falsehood and perjury.
**       ==  Jane Grey Swisshelm (1815-1884), U.S. newspaperwoman,
**           abolitionist, and human rights activist.
**           Half a Century, ch. 30 (1880).





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Last updated 27 December 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters376.html