Letters, We Get Mail, LXXV



Date: Wed, September 27, 2006 2:47 pm
From: "John McC"
Subject: Fwd: BS Bingo — this is funny

You need to add this to your site! Beyond hysterical!
;)

MEETING BS BINGO

Do you keep falling asleep in meetings? What about those long and boring using stories?? Get tired of the same old Slogan Babble, or members who continue to deal with the same problems, same defects, and same painful relationships FOR YEARS?

Here's a way to change all that...

1. Before (or during) your next meeting, prepare yourself by drawing a square. I find that 5" x 5" is a good size. Divide the card into columns — five across and five down. That will give you 25 one-inch blocks.

2. Write one of the following 25 words/phrases in each block:

  1. Issues
  2. Inner-child
  3. Living Amends
  4. Meaningful Relationship
  5. Didn't Mean to Use
  6. I'm Stuck On Step ____
  7. Couldn't Find A Meeting
  8. My Sponsor Has Been Out Of Town
  9. I Can't change
  10. I Won't change
  11. Yeah But
  12. Oh, The Pain
  13. But.... don't you think
  14. Misunderstood
  15. I'll Never
  16. Rational Recovery
  17. Recovering Person
  18. Searching (as in, "for answers")
  19. Gonna (sometimes prefaced with, "I'm")
  20. Been thinking (sometimes prefaced with, "I've")
  21. She/He said
  22. Dysfunctional
  23. I heard
  24. We Addicts or We Alcoholics
  25. I don't know much about this, but...

3. Check off the appropriate block when you hear one of the above words or phrases.

4. When you get five blocks horizontally, vertically, or diagonally, stand up and shout "BULLSHIT!"

TESTIMONIALS FROM SATISFIED "MEETING BS BINGO" PLAYERS:

— "I had been in the meeting for only five minutes when I won." Adam W., Atlanta

— "My attention span at meetings has improved dramatically." David T., Tampa

— "What a gas! Meetings will never be the same for me after my first win." Dan J., NY City

— "The atmosphere was tense in the last "Gratitude" meeting as 14 of us waited for the fifth box." Ben G., Denver

— "The speaker was stunned as eight of us screamed out "BULLSHIT" for the third time in 20 minutes." Carnie Joe, Miami

Play "Bullshit Bingo" at your next meeting...!!!!!!!!

Oh yes, that is very good. That's a keeper.
Thanks for the laugh.

And have a good day.

Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.





Date: Thu, September 28, 2006 8:44 pm
From: "Mike W."
Subject: Thank you so much

Hi, my name is Mike and I quit alcohol. Sorry, but I'm not going to give you credit for my recovery :P However, I will say you are truly a hero in times when we need them most. Telling the truth when the norm is a lie is VERY difficult to do.

I'll tell you my story with AA. I couldn't figure out how the damned thing works. It defied common sense — not just the powerlessness part, but the whole schmeal.

So, I quit.

Liked the coffee, tho :)

Keep fighting the good fight.

-Mike

Hi Mike,

I'm not your savior, huh? Well good! Yes, everybody has to do it for himself (or herself). It's nice to be an accurate source of information now and then, however. Thanks for the compliment.

Congratulations on your newfound freedom, and have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Things are now in motion that cannot be undone.
**    ==  Gandalf, Lord of the Rings





Date: Fri, September 29, 2006 6:08 am
From: "RD WH"
Subject: fun

Interesting site you have there. It never ceases to amaze me how many people do not comprehend the first step.

Hi RD,

That isn't too clear. Which "real meaning" of the first Step do you chose to believe?

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
**  telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
**  and that your will power is useless, is not
**  getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
**  With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.





Date: Fri, September 29, 2006 6:30 am
From: "BB"
Subject: thank you very much

This web site (orange-papers.info) is the single most comprehensive collection of AA facts I have ever come across. The information has substantiated my long time belief that AA is a cult. I will respect the quality of the material presented by following up with a well thought out note detailing my experience in AA and NA (17 years of cult participation). My biggest "problem" is an exit strategy as I have built my social circle around people in recovery.

Thanks again, this information is invaluable.

BB

Hi BB,

Thanks for the compliments.

The exit strategy question has popped up before, a few times, especially the issue of building a new social circle. Like here and here and here and here and here.

For sure, getting yourself a new clean and sober social circle is essential. I think a lot hangs on that.

Good luck, and have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "You can fool all the people some of the time, and
** some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool
** all the people all the time." — Abraham Lincoln





Date: Fri, September 29, 2006 7:54 am
From: "Richard V."

Your website is very interesting, misleading and ill informed. Although entertaining I find the reading opinionated and sentimental.

Your statistics support your views however I am curious if you researched both sides.

Cheers

Hello Richard,

Yes, I have investigated both sides of the issue, including actually going to a zillion 12-Step meetings and seeing for myself. Check out the bibliography. It begins with a whole bunch of A.A. council-approved books. I have tried hard to read all of the council-approved stuff that is available.

I also have a challenge out there, asking the 12-Step true believers to send in any valid medical tests that show that A.A. actually works to make alcoholics quit drinking. I've been asking for some proof of A.A. efficacy for more than 5 years now, almost 6 years. And all I've gotten is a few references to faked studies.

I'm still open. Send evidence. Send proof. Send any facts that show that A.A. actually improves the alcoholics' recovery rate — better than just going it alone and quitting by yourself. Send any information that you have to enlighten me and make me better informed, since you believe that I am "ill informed". I'm all ears.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Bacchus hath drowned more men than Neptune.
**  == Dr. Thomas Fuller (1654—1734), Gnomologia, 1732





Date: Sat, September 30, 2006 12:55 am
From: "Steve H."
Subject: Obsessed?

I believe you, my friend, are obsessive compulsive.

I have never seen anyone put so much work into tearing something, such as the Big Book, down.

Why?

-Steve..

Hello Steve,

You know, there is getting to be an echo in here. Steppers routinely complain that I am "obsessed" with putting A.A. down, or proving A.A. wrong. For some examples of that behavior, look:

  1. here, and
  2. here, and
  3. here, and
  4. here, and
  5. here, and
  6. here, and
  7. here, and
  8. here, and
  9. here, and
  10. here, and
  11. here, and
  12. here, and
  13. here, and
  14. here, and
  15. here, and
  16. here

If a doctor goes to work at a hospital 5 days a week, is he "obsessed" with fixing people?
If an auto mechanic works 5 days a week at a garage, is he "obsessed" with fixing cars?
If an A.A. member goes to 90 meetings in 90 days, is he "obsessed" with Alcoholics Anonymous?

Occasionally working on telling the truth about some popular quack medicine and cult religion is not an "obsession". If I goofed off any more, or spent any more time on other interests, I'd never get anything done on this web site. As it is, I'm a month behind in answering email, but I'm slowly getting caught up.

It's been a great summer. Lots of sunshine and I got a good suntan and bought my ticket in the melanoma lottery. And had fun with the fuzz-ball goslings. And my guitar playing got better.

And then I come home to find some A.A. member insisting that I am "obsessed" with proving Alcoholics Anonymous wrong. It's laughable, really.

But autumn is here, and the sunshine is disappearing. The rainy fall and cold winter will leave me stuck indoors, and I'll probably get more done on the web site then. I might even get caught up on my email.

Oh, by the way, all of those sneers about my "obsession" do not really change what a failure Alcoholics Anonymous actually is, now do they? So such ad hominem attacks are irrelevant.

Why do I work on this web site? Here is the usual list of reasons:

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld says that the
**   U.S. strategy in Iraq is "clear, hold and build".
**   (Washington Post, October 21, 2006; page A01.)
**   That is not a strategy; it's an incantation.


   





Date: Sat, September 30, 2006 4:32 am
From: SuncanaA
Subject: What shall we say ?

What shall we say ?

What shall we say when history asks how such crimes came to be committed in the name "In The 'BEST INTEREST' of OUR Children"?

Will we say that we stood silently by, shrugging our shoulders, filling our bellies, closing our eyes?

Or will we be able to say: We saw. We dissented. We resisted. We condemned.

For all those who want to open their eyes to the horrors of the illegal kidnapping OUR children, and to the brutality, social injustice and moral corruption of the Child Protective Services. Go, see, open your eyes, and let them know — these torturers, these bloodstained betrayers of our common humanity — let them know that you know what they are, what they have done.

Read More.
Suncana Website : http://suncanaa.com/voice_for_children

_National Rallies _ ()

National Rallies Against Child Protection Services
Every State in America will start a Nation wide Rally on October 5, 2006.
Remember the Constitution. If we dont use it, we will lose it! Americans are now uniting to rally against CPS abuse.
To find your State and County for Rallies & Class Actions please click below ....
County & State Information Groups http://indianacrc.org/classactionco.html

Why Rally for CPS Reform ?
Because of : Isaac, Allison, Marcus, Adacelli, Everlyse, Ryan, Jason, Ricky, Nina......and sadly many, many more...
Because of : those protected to DEATH by CPS.

Okay, Suncana,

Good luck with your campaign.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**  "On Saturday, the 2994th American soldier was killed in Iraq, surpassing
**  the 2993 who died on 9-11. Of course, this grim number of dead is dwarfed
**  by the 100,000-plus innocent Iraqis and Afghanis who have died because
**  of America's invasions of and continuing destruction of their countries
**  — which is the key reason a new CIA study is reporting that the Iraq War
**  has made the U.S. more, not less vulnerable to terror attack."
**  Dave Lindorff, Sep 25 2006
**  http://www.smirkingchimp.com/author/dave_lindorff
**
**  Actually, it's turning out far worse than that:
**  12 October 2006:
**  "...the current issue of the prestigious British medical journal
**  The Lancet, reports that the U.S. invasion and occupation of
**  Iraq has led to the deaths of between 426,000 and 794,000 Iraqis."
**  http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/1633





Date: Sat, September 30, 2006 7:50 pm
From: "Tim C."
Subject: hello

Geez, it appears I sent you a email about Bill Wilson and the movie 'My Name Is Bill', I must of been having a total ADHD moment. Which I actually do have that. But of course Bill W couldn't of made a profit from it, cause he was dead, my mistake. Didn't he die from emphysema?

Yes. Look here.

Anyways, I went to AA for 2 1/2 years because I had a problem with drinking and I thought AA was a place to go for help to stop drinking. Boy was I wrong about that one. I do admit at first I bought into their mumbo jumbo, they got me when I was all vulnerable and didn't know any better. They were all real nice to me at first, which did change as time went on.

So I got a sponsor and stuff, he told me to read big book and I read it and thought it was absurd. I had a big big problem with the 'We Agnostics' chapter. I'm an atheist and well that chapter was the stupidest thing I read about someone trying to get me to believe in god. Next my sponsor started to work the steps with me, I had a problem with step one and argued with him about how I am not powerless, I just keep repeating stupid behaviors over and over. I kept making the same stupid decisions. He told me I had a disease and I laughed at him. I told him it was the first disease I have ever heard of were you can buy over the counter. He didn't like that too much.

He basically skipped me on to step 2, this is where problems started to happen. The higher power or god thing. He told me I had to believe in god or I would drink and die. I didn't know what having to believe in god had to do with quitting drinking, according to the steppers, there is no other way. I also don't believe god exists, so I asked him if he had any scientific evidence or any solid proof. His proof was that he was sober, and I told him he was sober because that was his choice. So, he then asked me to prove that god doesn't exist. I told him it was not the atheist that had to prove that god does not exist, it is the theist that has to prove that god exists, since they're the ones making the claims.

He got mad, so I gave him an example to help him understand. I told him, suppose i say that there are purple unicorns, would he believe me if I said this and he said no. Then I went on to explain that if I believed purple unicorns existed and he didn't, then I would have to prove this to him. He got even more pissed and fired me and proceeded to tell me to go out and do some research with alcohol until I was in enough pain to become willing to believe in god. I thought that was irresponsable. I got another sponsor and me and him did not do the steps, because he thought they were absurd.

My second sponsor left AA because he thought it was too negative and complete bullshit. He said it was taking a toll on his mental health. I left about 3 months after he did.

A month before I left AA, a friend gave me a book, actually a fellow I met in AA that thought AA was bullshit. Well he gave me a book called, 'Resisting 12-Twelve Step Coercion: How to Fight Forced Participitation in AA, NA, or 12-Step Treatment', by Stanton Peele and Charles Bufe with Archie Brodsky. So I read it and it made perfect sense to me. About a week or so after I finished reading the book, some AA member asked me to speak at a Speakers Meeting. I agreed and this would be the last meeting I was ever at because of what I did. My friend that gave me that book, dared me that when I spoke at that meeting, to read out of that book and give my views on AA. So, that is what I did, I read the second chapter of the book, not all just a few studies. Like the Ditman study and the Brandsma Study. I am sure you know about those studies. There was at least 60 people at the meeting, they were all looking at me like they were gonna murder me.

Well someone stopped me after about 10 minutes of my speech. It appears you cannot say truthful facts about AA at the meetings. My friend and I thought it was hilarious...

After the meeting a few people pulled me aside and started bitching at me. About how what I spoke about was irresponsible and was not helpful to the new comers. I told them they were not helping the newcomers themselves and for shits and giggles I told them god told me to speak about that subject and that I was doing gods will. They told me I was not doing gods will, so I asked them how did they know that, were they god. That pissed them off even more for some reason. I thought it was funny cause I am an atheist and just wanted a reaction out of them. So after that meeting, my friend and I never came back.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Thanks for an amusing story. I got a laugh out of it. The problem is, that I'm sure it's true, and that baloney is really what the newcomers get from Alcoholics Anonymous.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Bill Wilson wrote that you cannot quit drinking by
**  using your own intelligence and will power; that you
**  must have a "Higher Power" doing the quitting for you.
**  When I asked Jesus about that, He said,
**  "Screw Bill Wilson.  I'm not gonna quit drinking."





[2nd letter from Paul H-R. The first one is here.]

Date: Sun, October 1, 2006 2:22 am
From: "Paul H-R."
Subject: Re: Hi

Hello Back Orange,

You know... You're absolutely right! I have been fooling myself this whole time! How could I have ever been so fucking stupid as to think that Alcoholics Anonymous has saved me from my seemingly hopeless and helpless state of mind and body.

Actually, it wasn't just your stupidity. You had a lot of help from fellow cult members who kept telling you that the cult religion routine really works.

It boggles my mind to think that I thought the last house on the block was AA, when all I had to do was to hang out at the homeless shelters, stand on the street and beg for money and just tough it out!! You know you're right Orange! I can't beleive I ever allowed alcohol to make me crazed and obsessed over it to the point that my whole life just got pulled out from under me like a startled rattlesnake laying in the grassy knowles attacking defensively with its poisoness venom, penetrating my veins and leaving me paralized. Wow, you know you're absolutely right. I just found out that AA is the largest cult in the world and that George W. Bush was recently in a local meeting here in the area discussing the Islamic anihalation strategy for 2007. Of course this was a closed meeting and no "outsiders" were allowed, including converted ex neo-nazi jews that created the Meth epidemic. The God of my understanding was a figment of my imagination... just like a gold fish orbiting in it's oval shaped bowl, forgetting about swimming halfway around and continues to go in circles for the rest of its existence. That's me... a brainwashed obsessive compulsive being, starving for compassion and love. Just lonely and tired of failing a miserable life. I did it all! You know, Orange, I did every last piece of it... I surrendered to my alcoholism, I came to beleive, I turned it over, I did a moral inventory of myself, I admitted it to another brainwashed soul, I became ready to have it removed, I asked to have it removed, I made a list of all the people that I so humbly treaded on in my addictions, I made amends to them, I learned the useless dicipline of prayer and meditation, and worst of all... I thought I had gained something from taking those steps... and being so naive to think that I had the ability to give someone else the opportunity to be led into the New Wold Order cult of Alcoholics Anonymous, and to give them the power to kill with fear-propaganda that alcohol kills and destroys thousands of people all the time. I've led others into this mess, as I was lead into it... my life today is so miserable because I have been able to go back to college, I have healthy relationships with other people and myself, I have a newfound concience that destroys me everyday because my innechild is entwined in broken glass, screaming, crying out loud that everything AA has done to me has created such misery in my life, that it has become so unbearable while seeming so useless that it's keeping from drinking one day at a time.

This is untrue, I was lying the whole time... OMG LYING!!!

I'll let that rant go...

Whether you were lying to yourself or simply deluded is a fine line, and an open question.

I'm supposed to be "rendered" white as snow, am I not? AA does not have a monopoly on getting clean and sober. This is something that is stated clearly throughout the 12 traditions & concepts. The primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to acheive sobriety. How it works is a suggestion... you can take it or leave it, it's that simple. Our book is meant to be suggestive only, we realize we know only a little.

Then why are people sentenced to Alcoholics Anonymous, with the approval and connivance of the A.A. elders and leaders? Take it or leave it, like Hell. Take it or go to jail.

No one held us down and poured alcohol down our throats, in the same way no one holds us down and force feeds us the 12 steps.

True. But what does that have to do with A.A.?

If you don't surrender to the program you're not a member, because the only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking.

What if somebody wants to quit drinking without surrendering to a cult or a religion or any other organization?
The desire to quit drinking does not imply that someone should "surrender". You surrender to an enemy.

If you have such a desire and see something that you want, stay... if not, we'll gladly refund your misery. Cult religion? More like religious freedom! There is more Jesus bashing in AA meetings than anywhere else!

And that proves what? (Besides the fact that A.A. is a vicious heretical cult religion that is not compatible with Christianity...)

The sacrifices that are spoken of in AA are not Cult Rituals, they are personal sacrifices we make to take time out of our selfish schedule to contribute in service work.

Again, that is an irrelevant statement. I never said that you sacrificed chickens on a voodoo alter.

But being forbidden from telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth — now that is a sacrifice.

Like in any area, there are a few bad personalities in there... afterall we are alcoholics... However, these few people set the bad examples by 13th stepping newcomers. These are both men and women and occur frequently. These people create a bad vibe and can cause people like you to freak out and prophesize your horrendous experience. I bet you were so vulnerable when you came in that even Bill Clinton would have fantasized about drinking brandy with you and smoking cuban cigars.

Huh? That makes no sense. And all that you are doing is minimizing and denying the faults of Alcoholics Anonymous.

But then, Minimization and Denial is something that alcoholics are supposed to be very good at.

If anything, I protect the rooms from this type of behavior and majority do! In fact, I know people that would get physically defensive if there was something "out of the ordinary" going on in the rooms of AA, including me. The police are a call away too. Now, I don't know where you went to meetings, but it sounds like you had a bad experience... kinda like bad trip on acid where conspiracy's run galore and sand-elfs are causing tsunamis that will wipe out mankind... actually it was NASA, Exxon and the Bush administration that orchestrated that by drilling a huge hole into the indonesian earth plates and sending down a hydrogen bomb causing the plates to grind an earthquake that would kill hundreds of thousand of people... this of course to divert the attention away from Iraq! Brilliant isn't it! I heard it at a "closed" AA meeting. Sounds like fanatic lunacy has gotten the best of you? Or maybe you did that all on your own? Well, whatever it is I wish you the same amount of luck back! I hope that you are able to convince the rest of the world that AA, as a whole, just sucks and has caused more harm than done good? Better Thee, Than Me!! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Actually, I got most of my "crazy" ideas about Alcoholics Anonymous from reading the crazy words of the Founder Bill Wilson in the Big Book and Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions.

Take it easy, I admire your persistancy and ability to blow things totally out of proportion... I mean I'm pretty good at it, but you're like a God at it! Happy Resentments!

Paul

Okay, Paul, do you feel better now?

You have not offered one shred of evidence that Alcoholics Anonymous actually makes any alcoholics quit drinking, or even just drink less.

But you did supply some more evidence that A.A. is a jealous cult religion that bashes Jesus Christ.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done
**   it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
**   ye have done it unto me.
**   (Jesus Christ, quoted in Matthew 25:40)





[2nd letter from Ted W. The first one is here.]

Date: Sun, October 1, 2006 10:40 am
From: "Ted K."
Subject: Re: The Orange papers

Orange,

First, a response, then some comments.

I believe I made to comment concerning "an altar to pray at" to demonstrate Orange's desire to collect funds while condemning AA for doing so.

Hello again, Ted,

That is a complete distortion of the facts of the situation, and it just isn't true. I have never condemned A.A. for passing the hat at meetings. I have repeatedly said that I considered the hat-passing to be one of the more charming aspects of A.A., and that if they would stick to fund-raising that way, that A.A. would be a more spiritual organization.

What I condemned was the Alcoholics Anonymous leaders going to the courts of Mexico and Germany and committing PERJURY to get A.A. members sentenced to prison. You know what perjury is, don't you? That is when you put your hand on a Bible and solemnly swear by God to tell the truth, and then you lie like a rug.

Well that is what the Alcoholics Anonymous leaders did, in order to make more money by forcing people to buy over-priced copies of OUT OF COPYRIGHT old editions of the Big Book. That is a felony, maybe two or three: perjury, fraud, conspiracy...

Surely you must have the wits about you to be able to tell the different between passing the hat at meetings and committing felony perjury against innocent people who are just trying to help others?

I have made sparingly few posts recently, though I am a fundamentalist Christian. I guess you could consider me to be a scientific Christian??? It's probably not appropriate for me to drop names, but I graduated with credentials in teaching most scientific fields including more than one flavour of biophysics. No bragging here, I'm just trying to let you know know a little of my background.

We can further discuss faith if you like, but here is one question:

Why do you call AA a cult? I have read a few anti-AA definitions of cult and they are sorely lacking. It seems to me that these folks have made up their own definitions of cult. I have studied religious apologetics for many years and apologists have been studying cults for hundreds (thousands?) of years. It seems to me that they have the better right to definite cult and not Johnny-come-lately, anti-12 step, self-defined scientists.

The singular characteristic of a cult is that the follower "must" be removed from their family. AA fails miserably in meeting this definition.

Ted, the anti-Agent Orange

Ted, read The Cult Test to get my definition of a cult. A.A. passes the test admirably.

The social isolation of which you speak of is merely one out of a hundred of the common cult characteristics. Not all cults separate members from their families or their circle of former friends. But they do the majority of the other things.

Furthermore, I have received complaints of A.A. doing just that: Taking over the convert's life and removing him from his family, and turning him against his family, and making A.A., and only A.A., his new social circle and his new world. Check out that link.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God
** who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect
** has intended us to forgo their use."
**     ==  Galileo Galilei

[The next letter in the thread is here.]





[continuation of thread from here...]

Date: Sun, October 1, 2006 7:28 pm
From: "Sharen K."
Subject: Re: A Telling Example, Etc.

Hi Again, Orange!

Yes, it sounds to me like that guy you know who recklessly speeds, is manic to some degree. Of course, this could go to different degrees. I probably told you about my series of webpages about hyperthymic personalities, starting at http://home.att.net/~s.l.keim/About_Us.html, as well as a webpage that summarizes all this, at http://home.att.net/~s.l.keim/AboutUsSumm.htm. Just after http://home.att.net/~s.l.keim/About_Us.html#research, I have a table that I got out of a book, headed "Common Symptoms of Mania," which looks to me like it really describes hyperthymic personality, hypomania, and then mania. This shows how, though in the old days "mania" meant only psychosis, but now one could see how impairment can go to different degrees.

In another part of that webpage, at http://home.att.net/~s.l.keim/About_Us.html#unambiguous, I describe how I once diagnosed a very hyperthymic boyfriend. He's a neurologist since he always knew that his usual personality and talents are very different from the average, but he didn't know why until I recognized him engaging in the behavior pattern that's the most distinctive sign of a hyperthymic temperament. That is, getting agitated about something trivial by going hysterical for a few seconds to a few minutes, and then suddenly acting like everything's normal again as if he suddenly snapped out of something. He doesn't have moods when he acts hyped-up. He always acts like that. Because of this, when he was behind the wheel, and stressed-out, in a hurry to get somewhere, under pressure about his driving, etc., that could have made him speed. This worked like temporary insanity, since after he was out of the stressful situation, he'd say that he was very aware of how dangerous that was, but when he'd do it, he simply felt an irrational need to. And once, I heard an obviously hyperthymic friend of his (bubbly like my uncle), tell of a woman who that friend knows who suddenly starts speeding for no good reason, though he keeps telling her that's dangerous...

I'd suggest that you try to pressure your friend into doing something to stop his dangerous driving, such as taking some medication. Anti-seizure medications that are used for bipolar disorder are more likely not to change the usual vivacious personality, but does control the problems. Maybe when he's not actively manic he'd be more able to see how dangerous his own behavior is, so you could try to talk about it with him then.

Hi Sharen,

He takes lithium now and then. As is usual with lithium, he doesn't like it because it makes him feel emotionally flat.

Regarding your e-mail about the Gam-Anon chapter, I think that copyright laws give you more of a right to copy text that you then express criticism of, than text that you copy as something that you think is a good idea. Our freedom to criticize requires a freedom to give an example of what we're criticizing. Also, if we're criticizing it, then we're obviously not parasitizing off of it.

Now that makes sense.

And, as I go into on my webpages about victim correction as a panacea, telling people to deal with their own problems self-reliantly through self-help, even if it means addicts' kids deciding, "I've stopped blaming others, and I'm looking at myself!", is basically how our culture tells us to deal with our own problems. The personal responsibility that it takes most seriously, is response-ability for one's own welfare, one's own problems, rather than even the worldliest ethical responsibility. As I go into on my webpages, intercultural studies have consistently found that depressed people who've lived outside of the modern West have tended to feel paranoid, but modern Westerners, whether depressed or not, tend to figure that even if someone did "get you," that would mean only that you lost the battle so you're a loser.

After all, that conception of personal responsibility is more reliable, since people are more motivated to deal with their own problem than they are to take even the worldliest ethical responsibility. That conception is also more honorable, since response-ability for one's own welfare is self-reliant, while ethical responsibility could have implications of manipulative ploys, or, at the very least, "The concept of good is divided into two subspecies, that of the directly present satisfaction of the will in each case, and that of its merely indirect satisfaction concerning the future, in other words, the agreeable and the useful. The concept of the opposite, so long as we are speaking of beings without knowledge, is expressed by the word bad, more rarely and abstractly by the word evil, which therefore denotes everything that is not agreeable to the striving of the will in each case." Christian forgiveness could also look like the epitome of being well-adjusted. While training addicts' kids to have attitudes of, "I've stopped blaming others, and I'm looking at myself!", might seem insanely pragmatic stouthearted and forgiving, the fact still remains that addicts' kids who have this outlook, would be a lot more likely to succeed than if they had the same parents but didn't adopt this attitude.

And the fact that, as you said on another webpage, this is, "one of those key things that opens so many avenues of understanding," has a lot to do with the fact that

That conception of personal responsibility might sound very all-American, but obviously it's never been tested as to how endurable its effects are. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered, that won't be as long as we figure that this is simply what "personal responsibility" means.

And regarding your splitting your webpages up into smaller ones, I don't know if your webpage editing program could do this, but Microsoft Front Page allows the "Replace" function to work on the HTML code of webpages, and also allows one to replace in "All Pages." When I split up some on my webpages, I changed my own links to them from the old URLs to the new ones, by:

  • a.. opening any document up,
  • b.. displaying its HTML code rather than displaying it in "Normal" mode,
  • c.. calling on the "Replace" function,
  • d.. telling it to replace the old URL with its new URL, and
  • e.. telling it to replace this in "All pages."
Then it would do the replacing in the HTML code, so the links are what would change.

~Sharen

(Ever since I was a teenager, anyone who didn't have a chronically manic personality seemed half dead to me, smirk, smirk.)

Well, I am running Linux, so the Micro$uck programs are out of the question. I also have 227 files to check and edit. A large file like the Propaganda Techniques file has hundreds of links into and out of it, and any of the other 226 files may have links into the file, pointing to specific named anchors, all of which will get moved into other files when the big file is split up. But that's okay. Unix and Linux have other tools to use to do the job. It's still just a lot of work.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding."
**    ==  Albert Einstein





Date: Sun, October 1, 2006 7:32 pm
From: "Glenda B."
Subject: Comment on your paper

I want to make this comment on your paper regarding the Effectiveness of AA.

I have now been sober for 2 years after years of drinking heavily. I don't often attend AA now although I did at first.

Hello Glenda,

Congratulations on your sobriety. It is good that you chose to stop drinking so much.

However, the most important thing AA did teach me was a new way of thinking which helped me to deal with problems in healthy ways for the first time in my life (I am now 56). I can say with complete sincerity AA definitely helped move me in the right direction toward making healthier decisions.

What does that mean, in plain English? That statement is pure psycho-babble, just vague slogans and buzz-words, and could mean anything.

I wonder if the person who wrote this ever attended an AA meeting?

Yes, many of them. Please read at least the introduction to the web site, here.

I doubt it because the part of AA that helps the alcoholic with new ways of dealing with life's problems is one of the most important parts of AA and to a person who is truly listening, in most meetings this is evident.

Again, you are just spouting vague slogans. Precisely what did A.A. teach you, and how did that make you decide to stop drinking?

Or did you really quit drinking before "working the program" and learning that "new way of thinking"?

AA is what helped me, not any "spontaneous" remission from acoholism. I also know people who have been sober for 20 years who have experienced the "miracle" of AA.

How did A.A. "help you"? What did A.A. really do?

And how on earth did you establish a cause-and-effect relationship between A.A. supposedly teaching you a new way of thinking, and your quitting drinking?

Just because you went to some A.A. meetings does not mean that A.A. caused you to quit drinking.

  • A bunch of people went to a Baptist church for years.
  • During those years, many of the women got pregnant and had babies.
  • That proves it: Going to Baptist churches causes women to get pregnant and have babies.

You say that your quitting drinking was not spontaneous remission. How would you know that?

So when did you quit drinking, and when did you go to your first A.A. meeting?

And when did you finish doing all 12 of the Steps?

If you quit drinking before finishing the 12 Steps, then the Steps did not make you quit drinking.

And since you aren't going to meetings any more, it sure isn't A.A. that is keeping you sober.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   Kevin Stockton, the blind man who invented roadside
**   markers for blind people, was stuck and killed by a
**   van on an Oregon highway Sept. 18, 2006.


Date: Sat, October 28, 2006     (answered 24 April 2007)
From: "Glenda B."
Subject: Re: Comment on your paper

Hi,

I wanted to post this reply on your web site in response to this but couldnt find the letter or your reply. As you suggested, I did pull up and read your entire introduction. Sounds like you had some very bad experiences with AA and I am sorry that happened. All groups are not alike though.

The AA group I attended for a year was not like the group you described and my sponsor helped me so much. Your being forced to attend was not a good way to get into any recovery program because the desire or need would have needed to come from you.

In answer to your questions,

These are some of specific things I learned in AA

  • to ask for and live according to spiritual guidance from my Higher Power
  • to think things through before acting or reacting
  • if I want to take a drink , to think it all the way through to what would/could happen if I did
  • to daily meditate and pray and live in such a way that I can respect myself
  • to be helpful to others in small as well as larger ways (most of which are totally unrelated to drinking)
  • that there are many others like me out there who have a problem with drinking and the support of AA has helped and does help

Others around me have seen an noticeable change in me for the better according to what they tell me. When I drank, I worked a full time job, never got a DUI (lucky), and didnt get into any real trouble but it was definitely controlling my life and I would have eventually been into some deep trouble because my drinking was progressive.

I did quit drinking 3 days before I went to AA so, yes, I made this decision myself. However, The only reason I did not return to drinking in that first year was the support and encouragement of the group and of my sponsor as well as attending meetings and listening. I still have that support from both my boyfriend (with 19 years of sobriety in AA) and from my sponsor (with 13 years of sobriety, also in AA). I also know there are many people I can call who will give me needed support not to drink without telling me what to do.

I had quit drinking through the last 30 years about 10 or more times and each time I returned to drinking pretty heavily after a time. Thats how I know I am an alcholic. I could quit drinking — that part was easy. I just could not stay quit.

You sound very angry with AA from the things you say about it and I apologize for your bad experiences; however, there are people who AA has helped and these are not people in a cult any more than people who attend church every weel are in a cult.

I know that people respond to different ways of recovery; I do not think AA is the only way. All I know is that it helped me to continue not to drink until I became stronger and for that I am eternally greatful. If I ever begin having strong urges to drink again, I will be at more AA meetings because it works for me.

Please just consider that different people find ways to sobriety that works for them and that AA is one way that has worked and still works for some people.

Blessings and Peace
Glenda

Hello Glenda,

Thanks for the letter.

My opposition to Alcoholics Anonymous is not just a matter of having had a bad experience with a 12-Step based treatment center, although that's a part of it. I am opposed to A.A. because it does more harm than good, and A.A. constantly lies about its success rate and its real achievements in helping alcoholics.

And A.A. does a lot more than that. I've already written it all down. Read the file What's Not Good About A.A..

Now you may have personally gotten some comfort and moral support from associating with A.A. members, but many other people got misinformed, hurt, raped, or driven to relapse or suicide. You were lucky.

Even one of the leaders of Alcoholics Anonymous, Dr. Prof. George E. Vaillant, who is a member of the Board of Trustees of A.A. Services, Inc., discovered from his eight years of rigorous testing of Alcoholics Anonymous, that A.A. killed more people than it helped.

And lately I have been getting reports that the A.A. youth groups are really bad for young women. Read these two items:

  • Washington DC has a large A.A. group for young people that specializes in the sexual exploitation of under-age girls by old sponsors. Check it out.
  • the Phoenix, Arizona, Young People's A.A. says that the group exists solely for "cars, pussy, and money". Check it out.

That's the dark underside of Alcoholics Anonymous. And that is going on right now, and that is also "the Real A.A.".

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Although easily mistaken for candy, holly is quite poisonous."
**     "Although easily mistaken for real moral religions,
**          cults are quite poisonous."





Date: Sun, October 1, 2006 8:38 pm
From: "michael r."
Subject: get on your knees!

Hey A.O.

I'm from the Boston area and around here AA tells you to "get on your knees every morning and ask God to keep you away from one drink for one day and at the end of the day thank him".

Well if that works, why not ask to be kept sober for a week, a month, a year, oh screw it ...for the rest of my life, thank you very much.

Why not?
"Because thats not the way it works."
Oh please.

peace
Tinwizid

Hi Tin,

Thanks for a laugh. And your logic is impecable.

Oh, and for the benefit of the Christians in the crowd, I like to point out that when Jesus healed the blind guy, or the cripple by the pool, or raised Lazarus from the dead, Jesus never said,

"This healing is only good for one day. You will have to come back tomorrow, and every day thereafter, for me to zap you again, and again, and again...

"Oh, and I think you should come back here plenty early, too, because if you go blind or lame or dead again while you are still miles away from me, then you are really out of luck. You will have a heck of a time walking here then..."

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**   George W. Bush is living proof that there
**   is no divine plan of Intelligent Design.





Date: Sun, October 1, 2006 9:25 pm
From: "Sharen K."
Subject: Re: Perennially Relevant

Hi Again, Orange!

I just looked at that website with the Al-Anon comics, including the series "If Your Parents Drink too Much." Frankly, this has the same logic as the ads, guides, for treating our rampant depression that I go into on http://home.att.net/~s.l.keim/VictCorrSummary317.htm, that depressive disorders affect 34,000,000 American adults, so 34,000,000 American adults should take antidepressants, or learn to have optimistic outlooks. As usual, the first frame of that comic series says how big the problem is, "At least one child in thirteen lives in an alcoholic home...." It's so predictable that books about depression give the statistics for how many Americans have it, in the very beginning, that often when I want to cover a book on http://home.att.net/~s.l.keim/VictCorrSummary317.htm, I go to the first pages to find the statistics, and then compare those to the title of the book, which is usually about how each depressed individual could deal with his own problem.

The series of comics go into how real the kids' problems are, but they're taught not only, "I've stopped blaming other and I'm looking at myself!", but also, "Ala-Teen taught me how to let go of my father's drinking problem and still care about him!" and, "I learned that alcoholism is a disease and that I can be happy in spite of my mother's drinking!".

I'd really like to know how the 12 Steps are supposed to teach children that... ("Let me confess all of my moral shortcomings and defects of character some more...")

Yet, in totally pragmatic terms, if each of these teens successfully coached him/herself into having that attitude, they'd be most likely to succeed. Linda, who has to do the housework since her mom isn't, would still have to do the same housework, but she'd probably grow up to feel less helpless. Frank, whose dad beats up his wife and who has to get a job to have money, couldn't change these facts, but could change not only how confident he'd grow up to be, but also how well he succeeds at school since he became clear-headed and confident. Randy wouldn't be a degenerate hippy delinquent drug-pusher, and wouldn't have run away at the end, maybe getting into the van of a child molester. Since just after his dad temporarily sobered-up, Randy is shown wearing a square-looking sweater and with his hair combed, obviously he did "let go" rather than feeling resentment about his dad's past drinking, but that doesn't seem to be good enough. The whole idea is that at least one child in thirteen lives in an alcoholic home, so at least one child in thirteen would benefit greatly if he learned to deal with such realities in such an unconditional, failsafe fashion.

~Sharen

(Ever since I was a teenager, anyone who didn't have a chronically manic personality seemed half dead to me, smirk, smirk.)

Yep. Thanks for the input.

And have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "To announce that there must be no criticism of the
**   President, or that we are to stand by the President
**   right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
**   but is morally treasonable to the American public."
**     ==  Theodore Roosevelt





Date: Sun, October 1, 2006 10:25 pm
From: "Edvo A."
Subject: Using coins to calculate retention of cult members.

I don't think you've taken into account the folks who just go back once a year just to pick up a coin and rub it into their faces. If you factor that in, you'll find that AA retention rates are actually lower than you think.

My first year coin was actually a 37th year coin. That came about because by the time the first year came around I was already long gone and just stopped in to touch base with someone who was (and probably still is) a major AA cultie who I had doing various things for me while I travelled like looking after my cat. So I stopped back a week earlier than the monthly "birthday party" to pick up my coin (my "sobriety" date fell on the 22nd. I was told to put my name on the board for the month end festivities. I did and stopped back for it on the (traditional for this group) last Saturday of the month.

So I stopped back and the person in charge never did like my views on the whole pack of lies that makes up AA. That and never getting a sponsor, spending a lot of time in bars for food and tea since my friends still drank and not getting a sponsor *ever* sort of teed off this control freak. Each of the "birthday celebrants" gets to come up with someone to speak for them, then they're presented a coin. Needless to say, I wasn't allowed up by the control freak who called an end to it after everyone else had their little speeches. So at the end I just grabbed any coin and I later found out it was a 37 year coin.

Now that's funny.

Now each year I go to one of the AA groups and snag a coin. I don't go to any of the meetings otherwise. The last few times I've been asked to comment I simply tell them what I had prepared for the first year birthday.

"If you want to stop drinking, don't fucking drink."

It's worked for me.

Hi Edvo,

Thanks for a funny and entertaining letter.

About the line:

I don't think you've taken into account the folks who just go back once a year just to pick up a coin and rub it into their faces. If you factor that in, you'll find that AA retention rates are actually lower than you think.

I've considered it, but cannot calculate any numbers for it. I mentioned in a few places the people who only go to one A.A. meeting a year, just to pick up another coin.

I also fell into that category for a while. When I went to pick up my one-year coin, years ago now, I had not been to an A.A. meeting in nearly a year, because I was very slow to go get the coin, and I really had 18 months of sobriety by then, and had not gone to an A.A. meeting since picking up the 6-month coin. (And I had not gone to an A.A. meeting in 2 or 3 months when I got the 6-month coin. I was going to SMART instead.)

When I noticed that A.A. boosters were claiming that all of the people who were picking up coins were proof that the A.A. program works, I stopped picking up coins. I am now due my 2nd through 6th year coins, but I doubt that I will ever go get them.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  The art of government consists in taking as much money
**  as possible from one class of the citizens to give to
**  the other.  ==  Voltaire (1694 — 1778)





Date: Sun, October 1, 2006 10:46 pm
From: "Thomas"
Subject: Thanks Orange!!!

A.O.,

I have wanted to write you for years and thank you for your work, past and present. I have been procrastinating because I wanted to write a brilliant essay for your ever-expanding letters section... I may still do that one day!!! For now we'll just just have to settle for a "Thank You" and a bit about my trying-to-get-better experience.

Hello Tom,

Actually, you did write a very good letter.

I have been reading your work since '02... previously linked from apple's aadeprogramming site. I walked out of my last AA meeting on Christmas Eve 2002 and made a commitment to myself never to go to another 12-step meeting for the rest of my life. Unfortunately, I went to bar after that meeting... for that night I had better company at the bar than at that meeting. Those meetings were LONELY... and I knew everyone.

I have been struggling with alcoholism my entire adult life. I am writing this at 41 years of age with 2 days dry. Went to my first AA meeting in '89 and stayed 3 years... went "back out"... came back via "treatment"... 6 months... back "out"... back in 1.5 years... back out... tried going back again and again and again 60 days... not more than 30 days in a row in the past 6 years, though I have been trying at least once every quarter, if not more often, in that period.

It has gotten bad... I can't detox without medication even if I drink for two nights. My body can't take it, but I keep going back to it and keep stopping. 30 days seems to be a major hurdle... usually when bills are due??? I have lost a lot, but still have a place to live... barely. I get suicidal a lot. I've been to doctors and county mental health so many times. They ALL say go to AA, I say I have been doing that for over 15 years and it doesn't work for me. "Dual Diagnosis"... they won't listen to anything I say or how I feel... their agenda is me going to AA. (Or they reluctantly mention SMART, which I have investigated online, but has very few meetings and they are not close by). Suicidal??... try getting an AA sponsor and reading the Big Book and 90 meetings in 90 days!!! [IMG: me flipping the bird] I mean I was serious about AA... I really tried and worked those steps and went to different meetings and got different sponsors.

But it IS all a lie. Nobody in there has ANY idea what it is all about because it is all a sick riddle created by a sick man who wanted people to follow him. No one wants to admit that they were taken and that all their beliefs are indoctrinated and their "AA personal history" is fake. Both of my parents are heavy AAers, and that has really made things a chore for me emotionally. Thankfully they have mellowed on the Nazi-scale over the years and seem to be able to talk to me without their AA goggles tinted too darkly.

I know the answer for me is "Just don't drink no matter what". I just have not been able to maintain that, even though I have proven that I CAN do it. I've always done it for myself... never via the law, etc. Just for my own emotional and physical heath. I have determined that smoking pot will ultimately lead to my justifying a drink. Keeping my head clear is imperative.

The best news: I HAVE BEEN NICOTINE-FREE FOR SIX MONTHS!!!!!!! Thanks to you, Orange!!!! (Well, I did it, but you motivated me. whyquit.org was helpful, as well).

It's amazing that I have drank 5th after 5th and not smoked a single tobacco product in six months. Really, THANK YOU. Your writings helped me a lot there. I smoked Phillip Morris products for over 25 years. Wish I had a dime rebate for every pack I smoked.

Anyway, I am like you... I cannot drink moderately. In the past months I have only drank alone, at home, to blackout/passout for multi-day binges around the clock. Then I quit and try to restore my health the best I can, but I pick it back up again. I don't want to do it. It is bizzare and incredibly painful and uncomfortable... it is like I am watching myself from the outside doing it but unable to control it.

For me it is progressive and every time I drink... even after periods of abstinence, my withdrawal symptoms get worse and more disturbing. Sometimes suicide is more comforting that another round of DT's (the doctor is sick of me coming in for Librium and keeps pushing AA or other "recovery" homes)... but I am still alive and kicking... I am still trying to make it. I hope I will.

I seem to do OK once I get some time under my belt. I just CANNOT have even one beer (or joint). Gotta watch the coffee/sugar binging, too. That throws my moods into a tailspin. I think I may be bipolar or something... somthing more than just depression... but I can't get an honest evaluation because our medical and social services systems are fully AA indoctrinated. One thing is for CERTAIN: I will never go to another AA meeting or have any involvement in 12 step activities for the rest of my life... NO MATTER WHAT. Oh, and I don't smoke cigarettes...

Peace,
Anonymous Tom in San Diego, California

Hi Tom,

Thank you for all of the compliments, and congratulations on quitting smoking. That will extend your life and buy you time to work on your other problems.

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles with alcohol. I wish I had a magic answer, but I don't. It is hopeful that you are still fighting the good fight. Obviously, you need something more to push you over the top when it comes to getting through the tough times like the 30-day barrier.

I find myself thinking, "increase motivation". That is one of the things that they teach at SMART meetings. Since you can't get to SMART meetings, maybe they can come to you, via the Internet. Or anything similar. Check out this list of meetings, most of which are online:

Also, don't miss reading about the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster. Understanding what he is doing has been a huge help to me in avoiding relapses.

And if all that the doctors are doing is sending you to A.A., then they are failing miserably. There must be a competent doctor out there who can give you more help than that. Please try another doctor, and another, until you find one who will really help you.

Good luck, and have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** One of the most sublime experiences we can ever have
** is to wake up feeling healthy after we have been sick.
**         Rabbi Harold Kushner





Date: Tue, October 3, 2006 10:54 am
From: "Sharen K."
Subject: Parental Alcoholism, Per Se, Considered Abusive

Hi Again, Orange!

First off, I figured that I might as well mention how seriously the law takes the negative effects of parental alcoholism, per se, and how different this is from the Ala-Teen approach. Another of my boyfriends worked for a non-profit organization that mediated disputes, especially within families. He told me that not only was he mandated to report overt abuse of kids, he also had to report simply when a parent was alcoholic. It should seem obvious that most cases of alcoholism would lead, at the very least, to a lot of verbal abuse of kids.

Also, I just sent the following to Mark Foley's lawyer. Let's see what happens!

Rather than a potential client, I'm e-mailing you about Mark Foley. Even before I heard his representatives attribute his problem to "emotional" problems and "mental illness," his whole situation and personality sounded to me like a hyperthymic, or chronically manic, personality. I have plenty of practical familiarity with this, and have some webpages on them, one at http://home.att.net/~s.l.keim/AboutUsSumm.htm, and a series on them starting at http://home.att.net/~s.l.keim/About_Us.html.

If that's is the case, then I'd suggest that Mark Foley not only come out and say so publicly, but also talk about the positive attributes of hyperthymic personalities that he has, such as his good sense of humor, and his whole attractive that's causing so many of his friends to back him even in this situation. The more years that pass by, the less stigmatized that mood disorders have become, and the more hated that pedophilia has become, so this would certainly help him. This could also make the public aware of hyperthymic personalities, which are so common that awareness of their characteristics would do a lot of people a lot of good!

~Sharen

(Ever since I was a teenager, anyone who didn't have a chronically manic personality seemed half dead to me, smirk, smirk.)

Hi Sharen,

I wonder how the lawyer reacted to that... It probably went over like a lead balloon.

We know that what followed was Foley publicly proclaiming that a priest molested him when he was a boy...

But just because a priest molested him didn't mean that Foley had to go do it to other kids... We aren't talking about a contagious disease here.

Oh well, have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  To ex-Congressman Mark Foley, who decided to hide in
**  an alcoholism treatment center: "Alcohol Abuse doesn't
**  need people like you besmirching its reputation."
**   ==  a comedy routine on the Randy Rhodes Show.





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