Letters, We Get Mail, CCCCVX

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters410.html#Kathy ]

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 01:24:40 -0400     (answered 5 August 2014)
From: Kathy
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Ok

You. Are. An. Idiot. Why spend so much time on something so stupid?
Sent from my iPad

Hello Kathy,

Indeed. That is a good question. Why care about so many sick people getting lied to and abused?

An equally valid question is, "Why do so many Steppers insist on spending so much time repeating Bill Wilson's lies to sick people?"

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If someone approaches you at an A.A. meeting and offers
**     to be your sponsor, run — don't walk — for the door.
**     You just met a vampire.

[The previous letter from Patrick_D is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters410.html#Patrick_D ]

Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 08:56:21 -0400     (answered 5 August 2014)
From: Patrick D.
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Orange

I really enjoy your research and think it is always a good idea to have an open mind. I do however do not agree with you arguments. Self will is not the answer. If you believe alcoholism is a disease then how does self will stop that? If you had cancer does self will cure it? If you are sick and need to throw up does self will stop you for barfing? I think not. You sound like a person that might be an alcoholic that has found another way. That is super awesome for you and I am happy. If you really think the 12 steps as a general guide on how to live is a poor way to live your life I sorry to hear that. For me and me only the 12 steps and my willingness not will power have saved my life for today.

iPhone Reply

Hello again, Patrick,

The key word in that letter is the first word of the 4th sentence: IF. "If you believe alcoholism is a disease then..." Well I don't believe that "alcoholism" is a disease. It is obviously not a disease. Cancer is a disease. Tuberculosis is a disease. Going to the pub on Friday night after work and drinking too much beer is behavior, not a disease. You cannot quit having cancer or tuberculosis just by abstaining from eating or drinking something, but you can stop having "alcoholism" just by not drinking any more alcohol. Funny how that works.

And the cure for alcohol abuse is super-simple: Stop doing it. And that is where will power comes in. For me, it's been 13 3/4 years without a beer or a cigarette or a hit of dope now, so the will power is working well. And the same is true for many other people too. I'm not so unusual. The NIAAA reported:

The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism of the National Institutes of Health, performed the 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions. For it, they interviewed over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
"About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment."

75% of the recovered people succeeded by using only will power. And you can bet that even the people who went to rehab programs and A.A. used will power too. But of course. That's the only thing that works.

The 12 Steps are not a guide for living, they are Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman's brainwashing practices (which he taught to the Chinese, and then the Chinese Communists used them on American POWs). Admit that you are powerless over sin, or powerless over alcohol, and admit that you are insane, and surrender your life AND YOUR WILL to a "higher power" who can be anything from a stone idol to a Golden Calf to a group of drunks to a group of devils. (It's another acronymn: G.O.D. == Group Of Devils).

Your phrase, "Willingness not will power" is nonsense. Of course you are using will power to abstain from drinking alcohol. Being "willing" to not drink alcohol is the same thing as using will power. So congratulations for using your will power to avoid drinking alcohol.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
**     telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
**     and that your will power is useless, is not
**     getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
**     With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.

[A new letter from Patrick_D is here.]

[The previous letter from Bob_O is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters410.html#Bob_O ]

Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 17:11:34 -0400     (answered 5 August 2014)
From: Bob O.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Off topic

I have decided to use Bitcoins to buy the Brooklyn bridge.
Long Island Bob O.

Hey, if the bridge was for sale, I believe that eventually, you could do it. One of these days, the value of bitcoins will spike up again. Funny money is funny that way.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A commercial heard on TV:
**     "If you or a loved one has died after robot surgery, the law
**     firm of Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe can sue on your behalf."
**     Apparently, now you can really take it with you.
**     You can sue someone after you die, and collect damages,
**     and keep the money that you win.

August 3, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove:

Bulldozers at Fernhill Wetlands
Bulldozers at Fernhill Wetlands
They are really tearing the place up. They have to remove the entire bottom of the ponds for decontamination.

Many years ago, Forest Grove did not have a sewage treatment plant. They just dumped the raw sewage out into these ponds to rot and settle. Alas, for many years, toxic heavy metals and other poisons accumulated in the mud at the bottoms of the ponds. Now they have to remove the entire floors of the ponds and decontaminate them.

Unfortunately, those beautiful carp died in the process. One sewage worker justified the killings by calling them "an invasive species". Nope. The European Carp, also known as Common Carp, are an introduced species. The Asian Carp are an invasive species. Besides, the carp are one of the few species that is hardy enough to live in the warm polluted water in the sewage ponds. There is no native Oregonian species that can live in these sewage ponds. This is not a wilderness area — it's sewage water settling ponds.

Bulldozed pond at Fernhill Wetlands
Bulldozed pond at Fernhill Wetlands

Dabblers Marsh Pond at Fernhill Wetlands
Dabblers Marsh Pond at Fernhill Wetlands
At least there is still water in Dabblers Marsh. Not much, but enough to keep a million baby fish alive.

Domesticated Ducks at Fernhill Wetlands
The three domesticated ducks, coming to get munchies.
The ducks are in the next pond, which still has water in it.

[More bird photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters410.html#GK ]

Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2014 21:22:11 -0400     (answered 10 August 2014)
From: G K
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: Thank you for your work

Hello. I have been reading your website for the last five years, right after I had my first 12-step inpatient treatment and had a horrifying reaction to it all. I won't reiterate the kind of AA horror stories that you have heard a million times, but reading your work and the letters on the site have been a great comfort to me. It helped me feel like I wasn't alone in my gut reaction to AA. It my experience, it is pernicious, cultlike, and incapable of truly helping people. It sickens me that the 12 steps have a stranglehold on the recovery "industry," which has become nothing but a machine cranking out AA propaganda, broaching no dissent and resisting any progress in finding better methods of treating alcoholism. Most doctors and counselors in my experience had no interest in learning about addiction or making any other option other than AA available to me. The litany of soul-crushing experiences such as lost jobs, legal problems, deteriorating health and damaged family relationships continued unabated as I tried, usually with tears streaming and no sense that it would help me in any way, to do the steps again...and again... and again. Finally I just broke myself off from AA completely and pretty much resigned myself to my fate. When I found SMART Recovery, the REBT techniques and community I found there helped me slightly, but I still continued to drink. I thought I was beyond hope, and so did most other people in my life, whose number was quite few by then. Then something very fortuitous happened and I just wanted to share it with you — not to tout or preach it as a "cure", but just to add to the conversation that the medical profession still has so much they could do to assist alcoholics who are truly suffering.

Last year I read the book "Heal Thyself" by the late Dr. Olivier Ameisen. His story mirrored my experiences very closely and he described his use of Baclofen to treat his own alcoholism. I found a doctor who was willing to read this book and then prescribe me this medication, which we both agreed was a last resort because my alcoholism had reached the point where we both knew I did not have long to live.

I started on it slowly, and once i reached the proper dose, I have gone each and every day with not even a thought of drinking. It will be one year later this month. No cravings, no higher power (I actually never realized I was an atheist until I tried the steps), no meetings, no agonizing contradictions and infuriatingly mindless AA catch phrases... just a complete indifference to alcohol. This medication is approved for treatment of alcoholism in France and is under study for approval for alcoholism in many developed countries, with the notable exception of the United States. Here, Baclofen has been established as a safe and non-habit forming medication for decades, usually for muscle problems, but the medical establishment in the U.S. is still shamefully resistant to exploring any possibility for saving the lives of alcoholics. AA is so ubiquitous as the "only way" that it is simply not questioned.

I don't have any stake in this medication other than I'd like to share what it's doing to help me begin to live my life again, and am not trying to persuade anyone to use it. I don't have any idea whether it would work for anyone else, but I'm pretty sure it's not a placebo effect in my case, because I had already tried naltrexone, campral, and topiramate with no success. I still go to cognitive therapy to help me deal with stressors in my life and pain from things that happened to me and my family when I was so very ill. I find SMART meetings helpful as well. And who knows whether it will continue to work for me my whole life? Or whether there will be effects I don't anticipate down the road? I don't know, because the studies on it are so recent and not as numerous as they should be. But I do know that even when I go to familiar places I associated with alcohol, or there's a liquor store on the road I'm driving down, or I have a shitty day or a great day or I relive traumatic events related to alcohol, or if I'm in the mood to celebrate, it never even occurs to me to drink. I don't understand how this happened, but considering the shape I was in and how long I had tried everything else I could think of, I believe this is the effect of the Baclofen.

So I'm hoping my experience will to help bring work like Dr. Ameisen's and the possibility of Baclofen use, or the pursuit of other medical approaches to alcoholism treatment, more into the light. My experience is only anecdotal, but it solidifies the beliefs I've had ever since I went into my first rehab:
1) 12 step treatment is futile and dangerous,
2) there DO exist other approaches to treating alcoholism which we haven't even begun to explore yet, and
3) the ideas of treating it as a physiological malady (and I don't mean "disease"here) are ignored because of the pervasiveness of the "spiritual disease" misconception.

Baclofen might not be — in fact it most likely isn't — the answer for everyone, but it definitely shows that the medical community needs to be doing more than shuffling alcoholic patients immediately to AA, where some of their nightmares will just be beginning. If there's a medication that made this profound a change in my life when I was in the worst possible stage of alcoholism, there must be more medical solutions out there we haven't even heard of yet.

Thanks for the work you do. And thanks for reading.

Hello GK,

Thanks for the letter, and I'm very happy for you. Congratulations for your recovery. It isn't just the pills, you know. You have to also want sobriety, and really do it.

I've heard of using Baclofen to treat alcohol abuse before, but don't know much about it. Coincidentally, the doctor prescribed Baclofen for me too, but for a different reason. I suffered from muscle tremors — sudden violent muscle twitches that were very painful — when I stopped drinking. The Baclofen didn't eliminate them, but it at least took the edge off of them and reduced their painfulness and frequency. I'm still taking Baclofen now, although I don't know if I even need it at this point.

The dosage for treating alcohol withdrawal with Baclofen is 10 or 20 times what I am getting, so I don't think that the Baclofen has anything to do with my success in staying off of alcohol. On the other hand, it isn't hurting, either.

I'm adding your letter to the list of "what works". I know that Baclofen is worth considering, and might really help others like how it has helped you.

So have a good day now, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**         The miserable have no other medicine,
**         But only hope.
**           ==  William Shakespeare (1564—1616), Measure For Measure, Act III, Sc. I, line 2

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters410.html#Megan_R ]

Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:09:24 -0400     (answered 10 August 2014)
From: Megan R.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Thank you

Thank you for this page.

I am 22 and started attending AA meetings when I was 18. I have nearly 3 years sober today. I spent 3 of the 4 years religiously going to meetings and living the "AA way".

With that being said, your article was absolutely brilliant.


Hello Megan,

Congratulations on your sobriety. I'm glad to hear that you quit so young. Oh how I wish I had quit much sooner, like 20 years sooner, and stayed quit the first time that I did.

Thank you for the compliments. I just wish that I felt half as brilliant as you think I am.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**       The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
**          ==  Albert Einstein

August 9, 2014, Saturday, my yard in Forest Grove:

Globe Thistle in bloom
Globe Thistle in bloom.
A Globe Thistle in bloom is like a geometry lesson gone crazy. I wonder if Buckminster Fuller ever saw one of these things. It would be easy to claim that he got the idea for geodesic domes here.

Bees feeding
The bees are having a feeding frenzy again.

Savannah Sparrows hanging out
Savannah Sparrows eating seeds
Some people sit down to eat dinner, and some just hang out.

A male Annas Hummingbird
A male Annas Hummingbird in the backyard jungle.
This guy is the boss of the backyard. Or that's what he thinks. There is also a male Rufous Hummingbird who shows up often to contest the claim. This male Annas Hummingbird is extremely territorial and possessive — he shows up and buzzes me when I am refilling the hummingbird feeders. He doesn't like me even touching "his" feeders. All that I have to do is approach the feeders, and there he is, buzzing me and fretting and fuming and chirping and letting me know that he doesn't like me around his feeders.

A beautiful pair of Red Crossbeaks
A beautiful pair of Red Crossbeaks.
The male is the red-bodied guy on the right, and the female is that plain brown bird on the left.
These birds are hard to distinguish from the Pine Grosbeaks. One glaring difference is that the Pine Grosbeaks have a beak that is stubby and only half as long as these Crossbeaks have. And the beaks of Crossbeaks are not straight — the tips really cross. You can just barely see that on the male. The ornithologists say that the crossed beaks are an adaptation for cracking seeds.
Look at orange-letters396.html#goslings2 to see a male Pine Grosbeak.
Also, the Pine Grosbeaks are supposed to be up in the highlands now, in pine forrests. The Red Crossbeaks, on the other hand, nest wherever they feel like it, and are one of the most unpredictable birds that there is. They just go wherever they wish, and nest wherever food is plentiful. Which means that they might be nesting here. Sweet.
One of my bird books had the funny story that the first recorded nesting site for the Red Crossbeaks was New York City in 1877. And the New Yorkers have been waiting ever since for the Crossbeaks to nest there again. Ever since, they have been nesting someplace else, like maybe over here in Oregon. Apparently the Crossbeaks found that New York City is a fine place to visit, but they wouldn't want to live there.

[The story of the birds continues here.]

BLOG NOTE: 2014.08.11:

I sadly note the passing of Robin Williams, dead from suicide. Now there is another guy who had major drug and alcohol problems, and he seemed to have beaten them, but didn't beat the depression. Chronic depression is a major problem for so many, from Bill Wilson to Robin Williams.

And I heard from another newscast that Robin Williams had returned to a 12-Step program while battling depression. Apparently, he has been in and out of 12-Step programs for many years. But 12-Step programs do not cure depression, they make it worse. You spend years confessing how bad you are, and listing all of your "defects of character" and "moral shortcomings", and talking about how you are dishonest and manipulative and in denial about how bad you are. That is just about the worse possible treatment for depression.

In a terrible ironic coincidence, the evening network news that reported the death of Robin Williams also ran a commercial for yet another pill — they run so many — the evening network news seems to be financed by drug companies — and this commercial ran the standard warnings and disclaimers about their pill: "If you are thinking of suicide, or having suicidal ideation, tell your doctor immediately."

It suddenly occurred to me that Alcoholics Anonymous should come with a warning label too. A.A. increases the death rate in alcoholics, and the suicide rate, a lot. So why isn't there a standard disclaimer for A.A. that they read out loud at the start of each meeting, along with the 12 Steps and the 12 Traditions?


Now that is a warning label.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters410.html#Thomas_K ]

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 13:05:37 -0700     (answered 18 August 2014)
From: Thomas K.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Williams' Suicide

Hi Orange,

I have been a huge fan of yours since the old Apple days. Thanks for keepin' on keepin' on!!!

I have certainly had my struggles with addictive behavior over the years. They are nothing that 12-step involvement didn't complicate or make much, much worse. I never found peace or abstinence until I took 100% mammalian responsibility for my behavior, my mind and my emotions. The 12-steps are nothing but lizard food...plain and simple. I now avoid anything related to them at all costs.

This brings me to Robin Williams' tragic suicide only shortly after a stint at Hazelden. It turns my stomach to think of this wonderful man repeatedly turing to 12-step "help" for decades and then tragically ending his life so needlessly. It was this delusional pattern that killed him, just as it has countless others exposed to it.

Sadly, this will be written off by mainstream as the "disease of addiction" without exposing the "disease" of 12-step brainwashing. Having lived through similar patterns of substance abuse, cyclical depression, suicidal ideation and REPEATED attempts to find relief in 12-step ideology for over 25 years, I know what he was going through. The absolute worse place on earth to send someone in those throes is to a 12-step meeting or facility...especially one as Nazi as Hazelden. I can only imagine the inner turmoil he was going through...the psychological confusion...the black and white thinking...the utterly hopeless inadequacy of imperfection you feel when you subject your view of self, life and world to the distortion of a 12-step lens. It is criminal that that lens is endorsed by a modern society.

I would love your thoughts on the matter.

Thomas in Southern California

Hello Thomas,

Thanks for the letter, and I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. Congratulations for everything from your sobriety to your common sense.

My thoughts on the subject are very simple: I believe that Hazelden pushed Robin Williams right over the edge into suicide, and they are guilty of medical malpractice, fraud, and manslaughter. The standard Hazelden routine is that the "clients" (not patients, but "clients") must do the first five Steps during their 28 days inside (at a cost of only $30,000 or $40,000). So Robin Williams spent 28 days listing all of his past "sins" and "wrongs" and "moral shortcomings" and "defects of character", and then confessing them to his Hazelden "counselor". Then he went out and committed suicide.

Robin Williams intended to live when he went into Hazelden. He talked about "fine tuning his sobriety", and he wanted to get his head straightened out so that he could live happily. And he was willing to invest $30,000 or $40,000 in his future happiness and sobriety. But after 28 days of Hazelden, he chose suicide to end it all.

Of course the 12-Step community is in denial about it. I saw one comment in a forum about, "I'm sure the anti-Step people will find some way to blame Robin Williams' death on A.A.". But of course. The responsibility is obvious and undeniable. But they deny it anyway.

Sadly, I'm adding Robin Williams' death to the list of A.A. suicides.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     For me to sit with a new guy and tell him he needs God and he needs
**     to work the steps in order to save his life is tantamount to murder
**     or at least some form of assisted suicide.
**       ==  posted by Rant at 9:37 am, Monday, November 5, 2012, on
**         http://moynihaninstitute.blogspot.com/2012/11/aa-kills-more-drunks-than-it-helps.html

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters410.html#Ian_R ]

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2014 04:14:43 -0700     (answered 18 August 2014)
From: Ian R.
To: Orange <[email protected]>
Subject: Help?


I have a friend with whom I passed through a 12-step program (one I recommend very highly*) who is doing very badly indeed.

She is in upstate NY and passing through detox after detox but always being sent home shaky and miserable (and without enough benzos to make a comfortable physical transition to sober life); or maybe she has not got it in her to ever make this transition.

She is a happy drunk, and I am always pleased to hear from her — but I would like to be pleased to hear from her in years to come.

I wonder if you have any resources to recommend, ie sane doctors that could help in her part of the world?

I note I recommend a 12-step place (new directions, walton NY). Not for the empty calories of step work, but because it is run by loving people who hire loving staff — the intervention, such as it is, suceeds because the staff are kind; and it suceeds despite the 12-steps.

Any ideas?


Hello Ian,

Thanks for the question. Unfortunately, I don't have a list of good doctors. What I would suggest is getting into all of the non-12-Step forums and asking there. With luck, you may find someone in your neck of the woods who knows of one.

The list of forums is in here: https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-alt_list.html

It sounds to me like she has some underlying mental condition that is not getting treated, perhaps a bipolar condition or borderline personality disorder or something. The 12 Steps won't treat such things.

I would be extremely reluctant to send your friend to a 12-Step rehab, even one where the people are nice. The 12 Steps are deadly. We were just discussing how they pushed Robin Williams over the edge and into suicide (here). The 12 Steps are just not good therapy, and they don't work.

Good luck, and have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A.A. quackery, straight from the horse's mouth:
**     "I have no doubt that a man who has cured himself of the lust for alcohol
**     has a far greater power for curing alcoholism than has a doctor."
**       ==  William G. Wilson, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, page 320.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters410.html#Jeff_F ]

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2014 01:13:46 +0000     (answered 18 August 2014)
From: Jeff F.
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: The truth about Robin Williams


After spending countless hours on your site I wrote you a letter 10 years ago and told you I would write back with my story. I keep up on the letters portion of the site and realized I can add nothing that hasn't already been said. My story is not that unusual. I am in my mid-fifties and used heavy duty during the 1980s (my 20s). After three 30 day rehab stays and countless 5 day detoxes I made up my mind. This was it and went into my final rehab in early 1989. I have been clean and sober ever since. I made up my mind before I went to rehab. The only credit I give them I detox and introducing me to some sober friends that I still have today. They did nothing else that contributed to my 25 years of abstinence from ALL drugs.

At first I went along with the program, didn't miss a meeting for two years. I did service... the whole bit. and after 15 years of spending time at the tables. I stumbled across your site and realized I was like takin the same algebra class over and over and the book was wrong. The meetings added very little value to my life with the exception of a couple of your "what's good about AA". Not all, just a couple. I have gained nothing from "the program". I have friends in the program that don't mess with me for only going once a month to meet up for coffee. It's social and that's it.

My recovery friends also have many years clean and just go to see old friends if at all. We leave the new comers alone. We leave the young girls alone except to warn about the predators. My message is simple. Don't use no matter what and try and find your purpose. Could be art, work a skill anything but wasting your time using or going to meetings every day. Find something else. I don't do service, I don't have a home group, I have never had a sponsor and I don't get chips anymore. I have 25 years clean and am very happy most of the time. My bills are paid. I am a good Husband, son, Father and Grandfather. We live a normal life. If I stub my toe and it hurts I swear. I am living a normal life free from addiction and NA.

Which brings me to the point.

I heard on TV Robin Williams died from what sounds like suicide. I understand he went back to Hazleton In MN less than 60 days before his death for a tune up. In my opinion this 12 step nonsense killed him. His death could not illustrate more clearly what's wrong with NA and AA and this why you do what you do. He could have paid cash for the best (real) Psychiatric help on the planet and choose to go to the ring leader 12 step shill houses. What a shame he never came across your site and really read what you have put together. He would have known the truth and maybe found help elsewhere. Instead he went back to the 12 step industry. It's criminal. AA took another life.

For all of you that ask why Orange spends time on the site think about Robin. We all have depression. It's part of the human condition. He was brainwashed into thinking the 12 step nonsense could help. It didn't and now he is dead. In my opinion Bill Wilson, his Big Book and all the AA die hard know it all assholes pulled the trigger with the lies and deception. I worked every one of the steps. The inventory was good for me because I was an asshole that needed to look at what I what I had done to other people, I apologized and moved on! I was a kid in my 20s for GODs sake. I needed to look at the decisions I made. For the record, I am an atheist. I don't pray. I skipped over 5, 6, 7 and 11. As an atheist I believe prayer is a waste of time. Thank God we live in America where I can live in peace with no belief in any GOD.

I am so pissed off that the rehab industry is still getting rich while people suffering with depression are dying without proper treatment. Robin was funny and well known. This story is not unique. The recovery industry kills 1000s per year or more. Thanks for everything you have put together. I saw the dots years ago and you connected them. Your site may have saved my life. After 15 years of meetings it was getting hard. I knew something was wrong, really wrong with the 12 step industry. Robin relapsed in 2006 and went back to the steppers for help, eight years later.....if only.....

For the record, all you assholes that want to take a shot. I started using at 13, got clean at 27, that's 14 years of using. I have 25 years of continuous abstinence. Normal for me is NOT using and I'm smart enough to know that is not an option. I'm not a dry drunk or denial. I am just an average joe who got really stoned for several years, learned from it and don't do it anymore. No matter what. Next time you're at a meeting, think about Robin, encourage people to get outside help. 12 step meeting are a social club at least and a cult at most.

Sorry for the RANT. I'm pissed about the circumstances that contributed to Robin's death and blame AA, NA and the recovery industry.

I know you will always keep our contact information private. I appreciate it as I don't have time or desire to debate the parrots.

Kind Regards and have a nice day,


Jeffrey F.

Hello Jeff,

Thanks for the letter, and I'm glad to hear that you are doing well. And I couldn't agree with you more. As far as I'm concerned, Hazelden killed Robin Williams with medical malpractice and cult religion and quackery. We have just been discussing that here. The guilt-inducing 12 Steps are not good therapy for a depressed man. They are deadly.

There is some confusion about which Hazelden facility it was. They have two, you know, one in Minnesota, and a new one in Oregon, just south of me here. The Huffington Post article said that it was in Minnesota, but all of the other news reports said that he checked into a rehab in Oregon.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If someone has cancer or diabetes or coronary disease,
**     we don't use a quack doctor to treat those sick people —
**     a quack whose only qualification is that he used to drink
**     too much alcohol or take too many drugs, and who is now
**     a member of a cult religion. But with the so-called
**     "disease" of addiction, the standard treatment is
**     to have former alcoholics or dopers dispensing their
**     platitudes and slogans, and insisting that "spirituality"
**     is the cure.
**     The fact that it is difficult to break established bad habits
**     does not mean that those bad habits are diseases.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters410.html#Kyle_S ]

Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2014 21:18:16 -0700 (PDT)     (answered 18 August 2014)
From: "Kyle S."
To: [email protected]
Subject: Curiosity

I think your are onto something with all this.

I got sober in AA 2 years ago. All went well. Then I starting seeing prostitutes (something I always did when high), gaining serious body fat, and over smoking cigarettes.

Now they tell me to either do 5 separate 12 step programs, which entails spending literally most my life in meetings, or apply just apply steps but don't do all the meetings.

I did all that shit to the fullest everyday for months. Trying to quit either with or without the additional programs.

Point is, even if someone like me quits alcohol and crack cocaine via AA, they can still be just as fucked and spending all their money on whores, in pain from smoking cigarettes, and ashamed of their fat belly.

Also, just fucking gritting your teeth and quitting on willpower is just as much bullshit. Also, Jesus doesn't save, tried that too.

Anyways, thanks for nothing, just exposing huge problems without providing any info on alternatives to 12 steps, willpower, or religion.

One last thing, I'm curious what would cause you to devote so much time to orange papers. Did something happen?

Would love a response, but I doubt one will come.


Hello Kyle,

Thanks for the letter. Have you seen a real doctor? You are describing a compulsive problem where it's one thing or another. It's like a game of Whack-A-Mole. You hammer the problem down in one area, and it pops back up in another area. Obviously, the 12 Steps are not fixing your condition. You could end up doing far more than five 12-Step programs.

Will power is a necessary part of any recovery program, but I never said that people should use ONLY will power. Use whatever aids help out, and feel free to combine them and stack them one on another: Medications are one possibility. That's for the doctor to decide. Some non-cult evidence-based programs like SMART or SOS or Lifering or RR might help. (That is HELP, not CURE.)

Here is the list of sane, non-cult self-help organizations, methods, and programs: https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-alt_list.html

Also see this web page on What Works?.

Personally, I used will power to quit drinking and smoking and doping, but I also got help in the form of both encouragement and pressure by moving into clean-and-sober housing. I got free rent as long as I stayed clean and sober. The price of drinking was going back to being homeless and sleeping in the rain. (That is some significant pressure.)

But that is all many years in the past now. I could easily go back to drinking and smoking and doping now, because I'm out in the real world, on my own, and nobody is watching me, and I'm paying my own rent. But I know that the real price of relapse would be to lose my health, and die sooner. That is a big price tag. Not worth it.

(And that is an example of using the "cost-benefit analysis" technique.) That is something that SMART teaches.

Please, definitely see a doctor. Or even several doctors, until you find the right one. You might be surprised to discover that a little pill can solve much of your problem and change your life for the better.

Lastly, you asked what happened to motivate me to do this web site. A lot happened, starting with signing up for a free "outpatient treatment program for alcoholism", in trade for getting an almost-free dry bed and place to live. The "treatment" turned out to be total quackery, just cult religion taught by a cocaine-snorting child raper and Internet child pornographer. No joke. They busted him for it and shipped him off to the State prison. That was just the start of the shocking show.

The first three links give the background information about the motivation, and the others give more history:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    If you get bubonic plague, do you go to a club composed of
**    other victims of bubonic plague, or do you go to a doctor?

August 11, 2014, Monday, my yard in Forest Grove:

Chickadee Drinking
A Black-Capped Chickadee drinking water
Those Chickadees have discovered that there are ant traps on top of the hummingbird feeders, and the ant traps are filled with water. The Chickadees consider those things to be water fountains for the Chickadees. The Chickadees are extremely reluctant to go down on the ground. In fact, I've never seen one on the ground. They just won't go there. I don't know how they get water when they don't have ant traps to drink out of. These Chickadees feed out of bird feeders that are hanging in the air; they nest up in trees, they sleep in trees, and they even try to bathe in the ant traps. They just won't land on the ground, not for anything.

Now I'm thinking of suspending a small bowl of water in the air so that they have a better bird bath.

A small immature Annas Hummingbird
A small immature Annas Hummingbird
I do believe that this is the child hummingbird that I saw the previous week. Notice how small and skinny it is, and the lack of coloration. It's just a dull dark color. It will get all of those pretty flashy colors when it matures.

I was surprised to see the mother trying to take a piece of string off of a hummingbird feeder. That is nesting material. Apparently, she is building another nest, and wants to make another baby before the summer is over. More power to her. She has time. The summer still has a ways to go, and baby hummingbirds fledge within a month of hatching. And I'm willing to feed them and help them out when autumn comes and the flowers disappear. So they can make it.

A small immature Annas Hummingbird
The small immature Annas Hummingbird

4 Savannah Sparrows
4 Savannah Sparrows

[The story of the birds continues here.]

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Last updated 25 October 2014.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters410.html