Letters, We Get Mail, CDI



[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters401.html#Gamine_H ]

Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 22:10:41     (answered 21 May 2014)
From: Gamine H.
To: [email protected]
Subject: What's Your Solution & Were You Born Yesterday?

Before I launch into it. I want you to know this is entirely in reference to your cluster fucked, mindless 20 page ramble called Why AA is Not Good.

Also beforehand I want you to know that I have worked the steps without God or any mysticism and am sober. Its clear to me from your essay that you are one resentful asshole. I couldn't figure out if you're an atheist or a drunk. Doesn't matter, you're so dumb you ought to drink yourself to death. Here is a copy of the 12 steps, with they're philosophical messages intact, but reinterpreted without any anthropomorphic tendency, that is, no sky wizards. These steps adhere to modern understanding of emotions and their role in substance abuse and the latest about humans not having free will, which we now know from neurology. Read Sam Harris, he has a PhD in neurology. A simple way to understand this is we are not free to choose that which doesn't occur to us.

For brevity I'll just list the steps changed that invoke a "god".

  • Step 2. We realized our lack of freewill and that our pursuit of control made us insane; that healthy control and sanity could be restored through guided introspection and practiced humility.
  • Step 3. We accepted our plight as automated beings knowing that objective moral truths exist for the well-being of all creatures.
  • Step 6. Humbled by our defects of character, we were entirely aware of the benefit of losing them entirely.
  • Step 7. With humility, we openly faced our resurfaced defects of character and discarded them again.
  • Step 11. We sought to improve our emotional stability through meditative practices in an effort to be mentally prepared to help others while being especially cautious of anthropomorphic delusion, self-will and immorality.
  • Step 12 Having had a psychic change and becoming emotionally secure we tried to carry....

All the other steps are fine and do not offend rational senses. The steps are an awesome guide to psychoanalysis for atheists if we remove all god problems.

The essay you wrote had a lot of error, arrogance and was too long. Here are my grievances with it. I only agree with you that AA is too religious. It was wrtitten onlya few. Decades after they bit.


Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 22:42:07     (answered 21 May 2014)
From: Gamine H.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Continued

They wrote AA a few decades after they stopped burning witches in mexico so what do you expect?

Success rate? Nothing has worked for centuries including todays secular medicine so any success world wide is good.

You have a huge resentment or emotional problem you need to address before it kills you or gets you beat up.

AAs dont claim aa is the proven tested method nor do they insist a bottom must be reached!

They also dont evangelize aa, its voluntarily reccomended by judges (you know the people we elect to judge stuff idiot) and it doesn't improve their legal case at all.

Placebos work, plain and simple. I guess placebos are worse than death or an Alcoholic life to you?

What the fuck is your solution, you rant like they've got it all wrong but offer no solution.

People fail, yes, because they haven't thoroughly worked the steps with rigorous honesty or with an atheist sponsor. They go back out bc they think they can control it, if they're real alcoholics then they can't, that's what alcoholism is smart guy.

Its not bad religion or a cult, its not religious enough to be a religion and not secular enough to be a club. Scientologists are cultists. They want $ and power. AA doesn't want that shit. Their primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety without $ ! Its called humility and helping others.

Also if its a cult, where's the sacrifices and objectives and power plays? They arent allied churches and do not ru. The nations treatment places..lol you're dumb. They are also not allied with the gov or take any money from gov. You're fucking insane.

Your sponsors better than a therapist because a therapist is PAID. Sponsoring doesn't involve salary or a 9-5 job! You miss the mark like crazy.

You take obvious figurative or metaphor filled writing as literal when even a Down Syndrome person can see the reference like: cunning, baffling, powerful or the doctors tissue thing. Surrendering your will to god is analogous to accepting you have no freewill (proven in the lab).

Dis-ease is also analogous to a behavioral problem. What's your solution again? Oh yeah, nurse your resentment and whine like a whiny bitch.

Religiosity, admitted, does drive newcomers away and the books and staps could be rewritten to be less misleading but....


Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 23:04:27     (answered 21 May 2014)
From: Gamine H.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Continued again 1

...the religiosity is misleading but the revolving door effect means when people go out, the often come back at some point not say fuck the whole thing.

They try controlled drinking get their ass kicked again, die or find a solution whether at AA or not. You're Insensitive as shit!

Prescribed meds for invented illnesses from the 90's or 00's ARE a good thing to stop taking especially if you're a malingering pussy who is addicted to drugs and alcohol. Plus, drug companies and therapists stand to make a shit ton of money. They convince you you need something they sell a cure for an illness they invented. Funny how their weren't ADHD people for the last 200,000 years or antidepressants but now we need em all the sudden. You are wrong again lol.

One drink does lead to a spree if you an alcoholic so wrong there too.

AA isnt antiintellectual! Its like a riddle enclosing a sound principle. Misleading at times, sure but it was intellectually stimulating enough to keep your smart ass mouth ranting.

Many AAs finsh master degrees or help others and do service work, some are conmen or theives or sexual predators. How is that any different from anywhere else in the world or america? Why single out aa? There's a bit of bad in the best of us and some good in the worst. I guess your resenting judgmental ass doesn't see that.

Aa doesn't sterotype alcoholics. Its pretty obvious to everyone cept you that drunks are selfish and in denial.

We also DO have a hand in our misery. No one can make or allow your to be angry except for you. You wouldn't know seeing as you have no humility

AA won't look at social causes? WTF do you think a moral inventory is for? Its a god damn list of resentments whether were right to have em or not.

No body in AA is apologizing for being angry about being beaten or malested. You're one sick confused person.

AA was written by religious people 80 years ago..... so what ? Welcome to america, Im atheist, intelligent and well read, ask me how I feel. Get over your shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-epOgih5PI


Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 23:28:52     (answered 21 May 2014)
From: Gamine H.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Continued again......

If people hate AA then maybe they'll quit drinking or find a solution elsewhere so judges will stop fucking with them so AA I guess is good in a sense. You know some people who have lived through hell think a harmless and imperfect meeting 1 hour a day is better than dying, prison or living day to day an insufferable active drunk. Can you blame them? You're an Asshole

6 million dollars isn't a lot of money idiot. There's 250 million americans. A few peoples retirement income could surpass that amount. And your calling a global club greedy? You are a fucking dunce bro.

AA isn't full of fanatics, America is so welcome to the world. You're mad that nonbelivers don't have something as strong as AA in america? Lol pussy! I'm an atheist, get over your little pity parade., go drink lol ignorant dumbfuck.

Aa doesn't victimize. People malinger and act like pussys. If you ain't alcoholic then go drink, what's the problem?

So what if AA has religious parallels? Great excuse to deny your alcoholism, avoid recovery or working the steps with an atheist. Lol is that what you did? No worries me too, then I got honest.

Public peoples anonymity is kept. So what if one persons secret got out. Have humility. Don't share with shitty people, were not saints!

Ol timers and newcomers are smug sometimes, doesn't make one better than the other. Same road even if two miles ahead, ditch is still one arm length away.

People committ suicide everywhere, even non addicts/alcoholics....how is AA to blame? You're dumb.

Were not perfect, when our defects come back, were not surprised and we openly face them with humility, of course "god doesn't take em lol

AA is free, Budweiser is $1 a can and you think aa is a scam. LMFAO

Aa offers suggested program, we could care less how or where you get sober, we just hope you do.

Its not voodoo masquerading as medicine, its free psychoanalysis shrouded with a little mystcism. Not everyones smart enough to be atheist so the need god. Trying to convince em otherwise is futile. Let em get sober. When they lose faith, let em drink then Work the steps as atheist. Without anthropomorphic delusio isn't a cult!

Hello Gamin,

Wow. Thanks for all of the letters and opinions. Now where to start?

  1. I guess I have to start with the line about placebos working. That isn't exactly true. Sometimes placebos might work, and sometimes they don't. If placebos worked all of the time, then you could sell powdered sugar to junkies and they would get high on it and be happy. But that doesn't work. Junkies know immediately when they got cheated.

    Prof. Dr. George E. Vaillant (the future A.A. Trustee) was also hoping that the placebo effect would heal alcoholics. In his famous book, The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery (1983), he stated that his goal was:

    In other words, if we can but combine the best placebo effects of acupuncture, Lourdes, or Christian Science with the best attitude change inherent in the evangelical conversion experience, we may be on our way to an effective alcoholism program.

    Well, it sounded good, but it didn't work at all. After 8 years of using A.A. on his alcoholic patients, and testing A.A. and trying to make it work, Dr. Vaillant had to report that A.A. produced a zero-percent improvement in the sobriety of alcoholics. What the A.A. program really accomplished was raising the death rate in alcoholics.

  2. Then there is your claim that you "worked the Steps" without any belief in God. As you pointed out, half of the Steps refer to God. It is not possible to "work the Steps" without some kind of "god". Without a "god",
    • "God" won't manage your unmanageable life for you in Step 1.
    • "God" won't restore you to sanity in Step 2.
    • "God" won't take care of your will and your life for you in Step 3.
    • "God" won't listen to your confession in Step 5.
    • "God" won't remove all of your defects in Step 7.
    • "God" won't talk to you in a séance in Step 11, and give you work orders and the power to carry them out.
    • "God" won't give you a spiritual experience in Step 12.

    There just isn't any "12-Step Program" without "God".

    Now your rewrite of 5 of the Steps just glosses over the real issues. Most all alcoholics have underlying issues that cannot be fixed by a little yammering about "defects of character" and some meditation. Alcoholics have problems like mental illness, bipolar disorder, PTSD, borderline personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, anxiety disorders, permanent scars from childhood abuse, chronic depression and more things like that. Those problems do not just go away because you say that you are going to recognize your "defects of character". Your version of "Step 7" is not a cure for those problems:
    Step 7. With humility, we openly faced our resurfaced defects of character and discarded them again.
    If it was that easy to cure mental illness, then there wouldn't be any mental illness.

  3. In your second letter, you mentioned "success rate":
    Success rate? Nothing has worked for centuries including todays secular medicine so any success world wide is good.

    But A.A. does not have a success rate. Not even a little one. A.A. has an elevated death rate. The A.A. Trustee Dr. George E. Vaillant proved that.

  4. Then you just had to complain that I have a resentment. Geez Louise, will you people ever get off it?

    ...you are one resentful asshole. ... You have a huge resentment or emotional problem you need to address before it kills you or gets you beat up. ... Oh yeah, nurse your resentment and whine like a whiny bitch. ... I guess your resenting judgmental ass doesn't see that.
    Welcome to the list: Accusations of "You have a resentment."

    And you know, you sure sound like you have a resentment.

    Speaking of which, this line is totally untrue:

    AA won't look at social causes? WTF do you think a moral inventory is for? Its a god damn list of resentments whether were right to have em or not.

    "Resentments" are not the social cause of alcohol abuse and alcohol addiction. Things like mental illness and child abuse and poverty and wars and pain and physical illness are the causes.

  5. Then you wrote:

    They wrote AA a few decades after they stopped burning witches in mexico so what do you expect?

    Now that is a good reason to discard A.A. treatment of alcoholism. It isn't any more modern than witchcraft. Or any more effective.

  6. Now this is just plain wrong on both counts:

    AAs dont claim aa is the proven tested method nor do they insist a bottom must be reached!

    A.A. constantly claims to be the "proven, traditional" treatment for "alcoholism", and A.A. clearly declares that alcoholics must "hit bottom". Why are you denying the core tenets of A.A.?

    "Traditional treatment of alcoholism" is supposed to mean A.A. 12-Step treatment.

    Bill Wilson's declaration that alcoholics cannot recover from alcoholism until they "hit bottom" is a really bad fallacy. Bill Wilson found that ordinary, relatively-sane people wouldn't join his cult religion or believe in his brain-damaged superstitious nonsense. Only the really sick, frightened, dying people who were desperately grabbing at anything that might save their lives would swallow Wilson's insane delusions. So Wilson made up a story about how alcoholics can't really quit drinking and start to recover until they hit bottom and "the lash of alcoholism drives them to A.A.":

    Why all this insistence that every A.A. member must hit bottom first? The answer is that few people will sincerely try to practice the A.A. program unless they have hit bottom. For practicing A.A.'s remaining eleven Steps means the adoption of attitudes and actions that almost no alcoholic who is still drinking can dream of taking. Who wishes to be rigorously honest and tolerant?   ...
    Under the lash of alcoholism, we are driven to A.A. ...
    Then, and only then, do we become as open-minded to conviction and as willing to listen as the dying can be.

    Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 24.

    A.A. members have been spreading that little piece of misinformation for the last 60 years, and now, everybody who thinks he knows something about alcoholism repeats it. But it is still untrue. And that misinformation causes a lot of harm. Encouraging people to become so totally wrecked that they are willing to join a cult religion causes maximum damage to the body. That is another way in which A.A. kills people.

  7. This is also untrue:

    They also dont evangelize aa, its voluntarily reccomended by judges (you know the people we elect to judge stuff idiot) and it doesn't improve their legal case at all.

    Of course they evangelize A.A. What do you think 12th-Step work is? And it is still illegal and unConstitutional for judges to sentence anyone to a religion. Any religion, no matter whether it is Scientology or the Moonies or Hari Krishnas or the Catholic Church or Baptists or Alcoholics Anonymous.

  8. Then you voiced another resentment:

    What the fuck is your solution, you rant like they've got it all wrong but offer no solution.

    We have discussed what works better than A.A. many, many times. Obviously, you have not read much of the web site before criticizing it:

    1. What works?
    2. the real treatment that I got
    3. How did you get to where you are?

  9. This is standard A.A. dogma:

    People fail, yes, because they haven't thoroughly worked the steps with rigorous honesty or with an atheist sponsor. They go back out bc they think they can control it, if they're real alcoholics then they can't, that's what alcoholism is smart guy.

    Wrong. People don't fail because they didn't "work the Steps". The Steps have nothing to do with quitting drinking. They are about religious conversion and brainwashing.

    I know that some people cannot control their drinking, because I'm one of them. And I have 13 years of sobriety now without ever once doing the 12 Steps, or getting a sponsor, or even attending very many A.A. meetings. I haven't been to A.A. meetings in 13 years now, so they sure aren't necessary for sobriety.

  10. Then you wrote:

    Its not bad religion or a cult, its not religious enough to be a religion and not secular enough to be a club. Scientologists are cultists. They want $ and power. AA doesn't want that shit. Their primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety without $ ! Its called humility and helping others.

    Of course it's a religion. You already noticed that 6 of the 12 Steps refer to God, and you had to change those Steps. A.A. is a goofy confessional faith-healing religion that says that if you confess all of your sins to God, and beg God to remove all of your defects, and conduct daily séances to "seek and do the Will of God", that God will be so pleased that He will save you from the deadly "disease of alcoholism" (but only for one day at a time). That is a religion.

    And yes, it's a cult religion. Read the Cult Test. We have been through all of that many times before.

  11. Then you expressed another resentment:

    Also if its a cult, where's the sacrifices and objectives and power plays? They arent allied churches and do not ru. The nations treatment places..lol you're dumb. They are also not allied with the gov or take any money from gov. You're fucking insane.

    What sacrifices? Your mind, your soul, your time, your loyalty, and your life.

    Power plays? You are powerless over alcohol, and they are superior to you because they have been sober longer. You should just do what your sponsor says, and quit trying to think for yourself.
    "Your best thinking got you here."
    "It's too early in your recovery for you to start being creative."
    "Utilize, don't analyze."

    A.A. does not need to be allied to a church. A.A. is its own church.

    Of course they take money from the government, millions of dollars, for running 12-Step treatment centers. Now I know you will object and say that Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc. does not own any treatment centers. No, the "two-hatter" A.A. members do.

  12. This is sheer insanity:

    Your sponsors better than a therapist because a therapist is PAID. Sponsoring doesn't involve salary or a 9-5 job! You miss the mark like crazy.

    You actually imagine that some drunkard or dope addict who isn't paid is better than a professional therapist? That's the A.A. cult all right. A.A. imagines that any degenerate crazy who believes in A.A. is a qualified healer. That is nuts.

  13. This is nonsense:

    You take obvious figurative or metaphor filled writing as literal when even a Down Syndrome person can see the reference like: cunning, baffling, powerful or the doctors tissue thing. Surrendering your will to god is analogous to accepting you have no freewill (proven in the lab).

    I just take things as they are written. Bill Wilson wrote some really crazy stuff.

    If you have no free will, how can you choose to "surrender to God"?

    By the way, your stunt of redefining all of the words is also typical cult behavior. It's called "Loading the Language", and it's described in the Cult Test here: 5. Cult-speak.

  14. Then you did the redefinition thing again in the next paragraph:

    Dis-ease is also analogous to a behavioral problem. What's your solution again? Oh yeah, nurse your resentment and whine like a whiny bitch.

    "Disease" is not "analogous to a behavioral problem". If it's really a behavioral problem, then it isn't a disease, it's a behavioral problem.

    Drinking too much alcohol is a behavioral problem, not a disease.

    And again, we have discussed what works at great length, often:

    1. What works?
    2. the real treatment that I got
    3. How did you get to where you are?

  15. Then you wrote:

    Religiosity, admitted, does drive newcomers away and the books and staps could be rewritten to be less misleading but....

    No, you can't do that. Remember that Bill Wilson did not have any treatment program for alcoholism, so he just repackaged Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion and sold it as a quack cure for "the disease of alcoholism". The A.A. true believers will not tolerate you rewriting the Big Book to take Frank Buchman's cult religion out of it. Besides, there would be nothing left after the Buchmanism is removed.

  16. On to your next letter. You wrote:

    ...the religiosity is misleading but the revolving door effect means when people go out, the often come back at some point not say fuck the whole thing.

    Show me the numbers. Really. Where are you getting that? Show us the numbers.

    Bill Wilson made the same evasive claim:

    Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement. Other thousands came to a few A.A. meetings and at first decided they didn't want the program. But great numbers of these — about two out of three — began to return as time passed.

    Bill Wilson was, of course, lying with qualifiers: He only counted those people who, in his opinion, "really tried".

    Then we get the nonsense about the people who left A.A. "began to return". Began to return? Either they returned, or they didn't. If you begin to return, doesn't that mean that you don't really return? You just put your shoes and socks and jacket on, and go out on the streets and head for the A.A. clubhouse, and then stop halfways there and turn around and go back home. That is "beginning to return".

  17. Then you wrote:

    They try controlled drinking get their ass kicked again, die or find a solution whether at AA or not. You're Insensitive as shit!

    I know all about drinking yourself to death. I nearly died from it. What is really insensitive is foisting an old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties on sick people as a cure for "alcoholism" and lying to them about how well it works. Now that is downright evil.

  18. Now this is what's called a The Straw Man Tactic:

    Prescribed meds for invented illnesses from the 90's or 00's ARE a good thing to stop taking especially if you're a malingering pussy who is addicted to drugs and alcohol. Plus, drug companies and therapists stand to make a shit ton of money. They convince you you need something they sell a cure for an illness they invented. Funny how their weren't ADHD people for the last 200,000 years or antidepressants but now we need em all the sudden. You are wrong again lol.

    Such sweeping stereotypes: "invented illnesses from the 90's", and "a malingering pussy who is addicted to drugs and alcohol". Wow. You hate alcoholics and addicts, don't you? You really regard them with total contempt. "Malingering pussy". A.A. has no respect for alcoholics at all.

    Once again, you are revealing the anti-medications bias of A.A. They have killed a lot of people with that insanity. You are not a doctor, so you have no business telling people not to take medications. Your opinion of diseases and medications doesn't count.

  19. Then you wrote:

    One drink does lead to a spree if you an alcoholic so wrong there too.

    That is a generalization that is not always true. Sometimes an alcoholic can learn to drink moderately. Some can, and some can't. And some can drink moderately for a while and then go off the rails. It all depends on the individual.

    Way back in the nineteen-seventies, the famous government think tank called The Rand Corporation did a study of alcoholism that found that half of the alcoholics who successfully stopped self-destructive drinking did it by total abstinence, and the other half did it by tapering off into moderate controlled drinking. The point there is just "Different Strokes for Different Folks". "Alcoholics", or excessive drinkers, or whatever you want to call them, are not all alike. And they sure don't fit the stereotype of "The Alcoholic" that A.A. pushes.

    Many people do just "mature out" of excessive drinking, and become moderate, controlled drinkers.

    Each of us excessive drinkers has the problem of figuring out which half we are in.

    I learned the hard way that I'm in the "total abstinence" half.

  20. AA isnt antiintellectual! Its like a riddle enclosing a sound principle. Misleading at times, sure but it was intellectually stimulating enough to keep your smart ass mouth ranting.

    Oh brother! Talk about somebody being in denial. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. A.A. is immensely anti-intellectual. A.A. slogans say it all:

    • "You have a thinking problem, not a drinking problem."
    • "Don't Drink and Don't Think!"
    • "It's too early in your recovery for you to start being creative."
    • "Your best thinking got you here."
    • "People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care."
    • "Nobody is ever too dumb to get the program, but some people are too intelligent."
    • "Opinions are like ass-holes — everybody's got one, and most of them stink."
    • "If you think you're happy, you are. If you think you're wise, you're not."
    • "Keep It Simple, Stupid."
    • "He suffers from terminal uniqueness."
    • "Utilize, don't analyze."

  21. Many AAs finsh master degrees or help others and do service work, some are conmen or theives or sexual predators. How is that any different from anywhere else in the world or america? Why single out aa? There's a bit of bad in the best of us and some good in the worst. I guess your resenting judgmental ass doesn't see that.

    The fact that a few people manage to finish degrees does not change the fact that many A.A. sponsors tell people not to finish that degree.

    The rest of the paragraph is standard Minimization and Denial.

  22. We also DO have a hand in our misery. No one can make or allow your to be angry except for you. You wouldn't know seeing as you have no humility

    That is more cultish nonsense. It's part of the standard cult doctrine that You are always wrong.

    No one can make you angry? Try getting beaten and robbed and raped and see whether that makes you angry.

  23. AA won't look at social causes? WTF do you think a moral inventory is for? Its a god damn list of resentments whether were right to have em or not.

    A moral inventory is not a list of social causes. Please learn what the words mean. The social causes of alcoholism are things like poverty, wars, unemployment, scars from child abuse, PTSD, and such things. A list of resentments is irrelevant.

    You keep talking about resentments as if they are the cause of all problems. You really drank the koolaid, didn't you?

  24. No body in AA is apologizing for being angry about being beaten or malested. You're one sick confused person.

    Wrong. You can't prove a negative, and I've gotten stories where it happened. It's routine for a girl who has been raped by an A.A. member to be told to find her part in it.

    Check out these stories:

    1. The Q Group: Young women have been raped by much older men. My old sponsor had sex with a 14 year old girl and he is in his 30's. He acted like it was no big deal. I mentioned to him that such things are wrong. He said "who says so"...

    2. more Midtown Group sexual exploitation of youths in A.A.

    3. the local TV station in Washington DC has been reporting on the Midtown issue

    4. the Phoenix, Arizona, Young People's A.A. says that it's all about "cars, pussy, and money"

    5. the Bainbridge Island, Washington, A.A. group is another sex society. And also, "When I was in detox in Everett I was kicked out with a bad case of D.T.'s because I brought up the topic of prescriptions in group."

    6. the Pacific Group of Clancy I., another exploitative sub-cult within the A.A. cult

    7. Also see this list of links to media coverage of the Midtown Group story.

    8. Apparently, about 15 years ago, a woman out in California that had many years sober (heavily involved in service work, a circuit speaker, et al) brought her teenage daughter to an AA dance at the Snake Pit. Well, the teenage daughter was brutally beaten and raped out in the parking lot while the AA dance was happening.

  25. AA was written by religious people 80 years ago..... so what ? Welcome to america, Im atheist, intelligent and well read, ask me how I feel. Get over your shit.

    That is more minimization and denial. A.A. is 100-year old cult religion. Remember that Frank Buchman started it as "First Century Christian Fellowship" in the late nineteen-teens. Then Bill Wilson copied it and sold it as a cure for "the disease of alcoholism" in the nineteen-thirties. A.A. is way obsolete.

  26. Now on to the next letter:

    If people hate AA then maybe they'll quit drinking or find a solution elsewhere so judges will stop fucking with them so AA I guess is good in a sense. You know some people who have lived through hell think a harmless and imperfect meeting 1 hour a day is better than dying, prison or living day to day an insufferable active drunk. Can you blame them? You're an Asshole

    You think A.A. is good for torturing alcoholics? That is illegal, you know.

    One meeting per day does not fix alcohol addiction. It is not a matter of "go to A.A. or drink". A.A. does not work.

  27. 6 million dollars isn't a lot of money idiot. There's 250 million americans. A few peoples retirement income could surpass that amount. And your calling a global club greedy? You are a fucking dunce bro.

    No, 6 million isn't a lot of money for a big corporation. The real money is a level down in the pyramid, in the 12-Step treatment centers, who rake in about $15 billion per year. (That is calculated by: the total income for treatment centers in the USA is $20 billion per year, and about 75% of the treatment centers use 12-Step theology as their treatment program.)

  28. AA isn't full of fanatics, America is so welcome to the world. You're mad that nonbelivers don't have something as strong as AA in america? Lol pussy! I'm an atheist, get over your little pity parade., go drink lol ignorant dumbfuck.

    That is more minimization and denial. And Ad Hominem.

  29. Aa doesn't victimize. People malinger and act like pussys. If you ain't alcoholic then go drink, what's the problem?

    A.A. is notorious for victimizing people. Try reading the horror stories that A.A. victims have sent in.

    And again, you have no respect for alcoholics. You call them "malingerers" and "pussys". I pity the newcomer who meets you.

  30. So what if AA has religious parallels? Great excuse to deny your alcoholism, avoid recovery or working the steps with an atheist. Lol is that what you did? No worries me too, then I got honest.

    A.A. does not just have religious parallels, A.A. is a religion. The fact that you are a confused atheist doesn't change the fact that A.A. is a religion.

    And your claim that you work the steps as an atheist is ridiculous. The "Higher Power" who does not exist will save you? And restore you to sanity? And remove your defects? The God who does not exist will talk to you in Step 11 and tell you what to do?

    Oh right, you rewrote the Steps. You aren't doing the A.A. Steps. You are doing your own Steps. In your Steps, you meditate in Step 11 and nobody tells you nuthin'.

    What's funny is that you are doing your own Steps which are nothing like what Bill Wilson copied from Dr. Frank Buchman, and yet you claim that the A.A. 12 Steps work. But you have never done them.

  31. Public peoples anonymity is kept. So what if one persons secret got out. Have humility. Don't share with shitty people, were not saints!

    Nonsense. A.A. members blow other people's anonymity all of the time. And Hollywood celebrities are notorious for bragging about their A.A. memberships.

  32. Ol timers and newcomers are smug sometimes, doesn't make one better than the other. Same road even if two miles ahead, ditch is still one arm length away.

    That is just more minimization and denial. What do you do about smug and arrogant oldtimers lording it over the newcomers? What policy do you have for fixing the problem?

  33. People committ suicide everywhere, even non addicts/alcoholics....how is AA to blame? You're dumb.

    That is more denial. A.A. causes lot of deaths by telling people not to take their anti-psychotic medications, and then the people flip out and commit suicide. A.A. also drives people into depression by telling them that they are powerless over alcohol, and cannot ever recover, and they must spend the rest of their lives confessing how bad they are. Some people find that so depressing that they decide that they would rather die.

    Here is the list of A.A. suicide stories.

  34. Were not perfect, when our defects come back, were not surprised and we openly face them with humility, of course "god doesn't take em lol

    Nonsense. That is just slogan-slinging and fluffy talk. The sexual predators and megalomaniacs do not "openly face them with humility".

  35. AA is free, Budweiser is $1 a can and you think aa is a scam. LMFAO

    A.A. is not free. They want your life, your mind, and your soul. That's very expensive.

  36. Aa offers suggested program, we could care less how or where you get sober, we just hope you do.

    Wrong. I've gotten too many horror stories to believe that. The A.A. members immediately dropped and shunned and socially isolated people who decided to get sober without A.A. or the 12 Steps.

    For example, I got this letter:

    Anyhow, things came to a head, last week. A new-comer of 5 weeks who is being indoctrinated quite nicely, sent me a txt "You need to get a proper sponsor, and WORK the steps". OK, i've been going to AA for about 4 years, on and off, and never have I succumbed to the insanity of getting a sponsor. It makes NO SENSE to me to allow a complete stranger to effectively run your life for you because you are INCAPABLE of doing it yourself. It's madness. Would I allow any random stranger on the street to control my thinking and actions? No, so why does AA insist that newcomers get a sponsor who then goes on to control their lives?

    So, I shared that I will never ever get a sponsor, and that I thought AA is a cult. This was before I googled AA Cult on the internet. Hahahaha.... This message is not what people want to hear in AA rooms. At all. I've noticed over the years that if you "stay on message" the cult-members will love you for it. At one point I was trying the get down on my knees and pray scenario, and of course the members lapped this up when I shared about it. This never sat well with me because I DO NOT believe in GOD. It goes against everything that I believe in.

    If you DO NOT tell AA members what they want to hear, they will all grumble behind your back, call you a dry drunk, and tell you to work the program, etc, etc, as you've pointed out.
    == Letter from "D.", Sat, August 28, 2010

    Obviously, A.A. members care very much just how you get sober, and they resent someone getting sober without kissing Bill Wilson's ass, and "working The Program". A.A. members have repeatedly said that I am not really sober because I have not worked the 12 Steps. Never mind the fact that I haven't had a drink of alcohol in 13 years, according to A.A. I am still not sober. Maybe a "dry drunk", but not sober. And that is just cult bullshit.

  37. Its not voodoo masquerading as medicine, its free psychoanalysis shrouded with a little mystcism. Not everyones smart enough to be atheist so the need god. Trying to convince em otherwise is futile. Let em get sober. When they lose faith, let em drink then Work the steps as atheist. Without anthropomorphic delusio isn't a cult!

    Yes, voodoo masquerading as medicine is exactly what A.A. is. A.A. sells Dr. Frank Buchman's religion as a cure for "alcoholism".

    A.A. is not psychoanalysis, it is brainwashing. Look at Dr. Robert Jay Lifton's Eight Conditions for Thought Reform, that is, for Red Chinese brainwashing, and notice that the A.A. program does all of those things.

    And what is really wild is that it was Dr. Frank Buchman who taught that guilt-inducing method of group conversion to the Chinese back in the late nineteen-teens and early nineteen-twenties.


    Bishop Logan Herbert Roots and Frank N. D. Buchman in China

    And some people need God because they are stupid?
    And you are smart enough to be an atheist?
    What arrogance you have. And you dare to brag about humility?

    And this is nonsense: "Without anthropomorphic delusio isn't a cult!"
    Wrong. There are all kinds of cults: political cults, economic cults, religious cults, utopian cults. You don't have to believe in a Big Bogeyman in the Sky to be in a cult. Read the Cult Test.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     7th Step Prayer said aloud on bended knee to said doorknob:
**     "My Creator, I am now willing that you should have all of me, good
**     and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of
**     character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my
**     fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do your
**     bidding. Amen." (Big Book p76.)
**       ==  "Australian Academic Misconceptions: Alcoholics Anonymous",
**           Prepared by a 15 year veteran AA member and historian,
**           18 September 2011 

[The next letter from Gamine_H is here.]





May 18, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove:

Greylag Goose + Canada Goose
Gus and his wife are coming to me for munchies.
And you can see another goose way behind them, just leaving the island, with the same idea in mind. In fact, most of the geese that are on their feet will soon be swimming towards me.

Canada Geese
A Goose Flotilla, munching bread. They are all getting a bite to eat.

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 4, getting some more to eat.

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 4, getting some more to eat.

[More bird photos below, here.]





[The previous letter from Eva is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters401.html#Eva ]

Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 14:40:58     (answered 21 May 2014)
From: Eva
To: [email protected]
Subject: research/integrity

Don't know where you got the idea I want the holocaust to be a hoax. Rather disappointed by that remark. Still, it is a very common reaction and you're nothing exceptional.

All the best,

Eva

Sent from my iPad

Hello again, Eva,

You don't want the Holocaust to be a hoax? Then why do you reject all evidence that it ever happened? You dismiss the Canadian trials of Holocaust deniers as "emotional" with "thin evidence". You dismiss the evidence from the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials for some odd reason. It seems like, no matter what evidence I bring up, you reject it with some excuse or other.

So what do you consider valid, reliable evidence that the Holocaust really happened?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Imagine how people will interact with each other when they know they
**     cannot harm another person, place, condition or thing without harming
**     themselves.  Imagine the difference when people, everywhere, accept
**     the divine truth:  as they give, so shall they receive.
**       —  (Mayan) Don Alejandro Cirilo Perez Oxlaj 





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters401.html#Jackie ]

Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 06:19:14 -0700     (answered 21 April 2014)
From: Jackie
Subject: Orange & Ryan E. Exchange Dec. 2005 — Feb. 2006

Re: http://orange-papers.info/orange-letters32.html#Ryan_E

BRAVO! WONDERFULLY COURAGEOUS STIMULATING nudges for brain cells of everyone concerned!!

With deep appreciation & due regards to you both (sorry not able also to contact Ryan E.)...hoping you're both still ok ~ ~

New Reader (just found you on Google)
(30+ yrs.' sobriety, 15+ not-so-joyously agnostically with AA... then 15+ grievingly without AA, following non-religious son's 1997 highway suicide — no note — after he'd earned 3 one-year recovery medallions in AA... while still sober, per M.E. report, but, per witness, having carelessly misdosed SSRI meds)

Hello Jackie,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments. Ah yes, what a blast from the past. I had not looked at that letter in years.

I don't know about Ryan E., but I'm still okay, and I hope you are too.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to
**     a profoundly sick society.
**       ==  J. Krishnamurti





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters401.html#Oscar_P ]

Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 15:08:20     (answered 23 May 2014)
From: oscar p.
To: [email protected]
Subject: Why I left AA

Hi Orange,

First off thank you for what you do. From the beginning I thought their was something a little off about AA but decided to give it a shot anyway. One of the first AA slogans I heard was utilize don't analyze. Not easy for someone who analyzes just about everything, its just who I am and I'm fine with that. I thought the whole higher power thing was nonsense. So you can pick any higher power you choose and some how it's going to keep you sober i don't think so. Then there are the 12 steps that will help you have a spiritual awakening. Ya so.

And how dare you question anything in the big book or anything else AA related. I remember the first time I did you would have thought I killed someone by the looks on the true believers faces.

I always hated how AA took all the credit when someone stayed sober and gave all the blame to the individual when they didn't.

It's crazy all the things I have heard and seen over the last year and a half. One question I have is "Do all the old timers really believe all the crap that is coming out of their mouths?" If so they are crazier now than before they entered AA. I thought step 2 was supposed to return you to sanity. I guess I must have misunderstood that step. On to steps 4 and 5: the only relief I got from doing these 2 steps was the relief they were done and over with nothing else and the only reason I did the stupid steps in the first place was just so I could say I did, a complete waste of time and I think and yes I do think unlike the true believers they are potentially dangerous for those who have bigger issues. The only thing good about reading the big book for me was the more I read it the more I disagreed with what it contained. I don't know about you, but reading a book once is usually good enough for me. I thought there was something off when I was told to read the book over and over again. Sounds a little cult like to me.

I am so glad I never let myself get sucked in like so may others have. I am still baffled how anyone with half a brain could buy what AA is selling. Leap of faith my ass. I think I gave AA a fare shake I sat in meetings day after day for a year and a half faking it the whole time. It was suggested that I fake it til I make it. Make what a fool of myself sticking around any longer then I already have. No thank you.

The last straw for me was finding out that all AA was, was a knock off of the Oxford group cult and that old Frank B's crazy ideas got passed on to Bill W. I also love how they base all of AA's so-called treatment on the opinion of one doctor. It sounds a little crazy to me. allergy funny. And last but not least remember its a thinking problem not a drinking problem. once again my ass. My best thinking got me the hell out of AA. thank goodness and the only one keeping me sober for the past year and a half was me. I guess I can give a little credit to the trusty old door knob or was it the group of drunks or the tables once again my ass.

Thanks.

Hello Oscar,

Thanks for the letter, and of course I couldn't agree more. Congratulations on your sobriety, too. And yes, it was also my best thinking that got me out of A.A.

And another laugh is that when you voice such opinions, they say that "You have a resentment," as if that is the answer to everything. A previous letter just said that repeatedly. Funny how happy I am, and how well I am doing, considering that I seem to be just a mass of resentments. :-)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     Low-IQ people make better followers. Smarter people will question
**     authorities, and ask what they really know, and ask whether their
**     ideas are valid and ask whether their orders are wise. The lower-I.Q.
**     people will imagine that they should just obey orders because that's
**     what the leader says.
**
**     "They are cases of A.D.D."
**     "Attention Deficit Disorder?"
**     "No, Alcohol-Damaged Disciples."





May 18, 2014, Sunday, the Fernhill Wetlands at Forest Grove:

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 4

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 4

Canada Geese
Pondscape with Canada Geese

Domesticated Ducks
The two remaining domesticated ducks (drakes, really), coming to get their munchies.

[The story of the birds continues here.]





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Last updated 26 May 2014.
The most recent version of this file can be found at http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters401.html