Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLXIII



[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters363.html#Allen_W ]

On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Allen W. wrote:

I sent a request for forum registration to [email protected], but your host would not accept it, & it bounced. SO... retry. The user name is sam snoid. I have read your website, & I certainly won't spam. Hope you get this. Thanky :-)

Sent from my Kyocera Rise


Orange wrote:

Okay Allen, I found the registration and approved it. You are in.
Welcome.
I don't know what is going on with Hostmonster, but I do know that they are getting worse and worse, and I need a new server.

Have a good day now.
== Orange


Date: Jun 24, 2013       (answered 7 August 2013)
From: Allen W.

Hey ho, AO. Snoid here. And thanky! Mebbee one of these days I'll have something to say. I been burned in AA too. I think that you dumping akahol & ciggies @ the same time is more impressive than swallowing belladonna & seeing God! 1 ?, tho: how come little goose coops have 2 doors? Carpe diem! :-)

Sent from my Kyocera Rise

Hello again, Allen,

I just found your response. I don't check Gmail very often.

Thanks for the compliment about quitting. And yes, I can tell you that quitting both alcohol and tobacco at the same time is really like "riding a rocket into the fourth dimension", to reuse Bill Wilson's phrase. The improvement in your health is dramatic. And the pink-cloud effect is delightful.

I don't have a goose coop, so I don't know about the doors. (In fact, I don't own any kind of a bird cage. I never put goslings in a cage. They just hang out with me, and sit beside me, or snuggle up against me, or sit in my lap, or sleep with me. So, no cage, no doors.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    If I knew I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.
**      ==  Mickey Mantle





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters363.html#Mark_S ]

Date: 3/25/12       (answered 7 August 2013)
From: Mark S.

Terry,

I thought this was funny.

The Twelve Steps of Catholics Anonymous

  • 1) I admit that guilt, shame, and self-denial are not virtues; that they make life less joyous.
  • 2) I came to believe that the power for goodness within myself could restore me to reason.
  • 3) I made the decision to decide for myself what is moral and right, and not to simply adhere to what I have been told.
  • 4) I made a searching and fearless moral inventory to help me understand what was right and wrong for my life.
  • 5) I admitted to myself that I might not have all the answers, but the conclusions I had come to were enough for me at this time.
  • 6) I was entirely ready to stop judging myself and others based on an arcane and often hypocritical religious doctrine.
  • 7) I humbly admitted that I am a mere human being and therefore not arrogant enough to claim that I know all about this supposed god and what it really wants.
  • 8) I made a commitment to be kind, accepting, understanding and altruistic in all that I do, and to admit when I may have done wrong.
  • 9) I made amends with others and myself for all the conflict that religion had caused in my life.
  • 10) I continue to question the validity of religion in my life and the lives of others all over the world.
  • 11) I sought out others who shared my beliefs of tolerance and acceptance and learned from them.
  • 12) I try to be a freethinker in all aspects of my life, and to always be open to new people and new ideas.

Do you know if there is a chapter of Catholics Anonymous in Portland?

Mark E. deSnow
Recovering Victim of Roman Catholicism

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the Steps, and no, I don't know about Catholics Anonymous in Portland. But I've sure heard enough people say that they are recovering Catholics.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Whenever I hear the phrase, "He's a God-fearing man,"
**     I wonder, "What did he do wrong?"





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters363.html#Padge ]

Date: 11/30/10       (answered 7 August 2013)
From: padge

what a lot of work has gone into this diatribe... it totally misses the point of AA and misinterprets it but you should never let that get in the way of your mission

you could have done something positive with your life instead ;of course...but whatever-

keep taking the medication

yawn

Hello Padge,

Thanks for the note. No, I have not missed the point. The point was supposed to be to help alcoholics quit drinking alcohol. And A.A. fails to do that.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     Wonderful little our fathers knew,
**     Half their remedies cured you dead —
**     Most of their teaching was quite untrue.
**       ==  Rudyard Kipling, Our Fathers of Old, Stanza 3
*
**     Most men die of their remedies, not of their diseases.
**       ==  Molière, The Imaginary Invalid (1673), 3, tr. John Wood





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters363.html#Bryce_S ]

Date: 8/30/11       (answered 7 August 2013)
From: Bryce S.

Terrance,

Just a quick follow up. No response to the below?

Begin forwarded message:

From: Bryce S.
Subject: Bias
Date: January 2, 2010 11:46:37 AM PST

Hello-

I am a sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous that has struggled with relapse for over thirteen years. I came across your website about a year ago and was very interested to read your point of view and arguments. They actually helped me quite a bit to realize that there are always varied perspectives on any matter which claims to help people. The one thing I find most interesting is that there is no reference to any information about you- the writer. In any literary work or argument it is one of the most basic tenets to consider the frame of reference of the writer, that is the inherent bias in the author. I am curious how you expect any intelligent person to take you seriously without any background information about yourself? I am not sending this letter as an attack, but more of a challenge to improve your site and body of work by sharing perhaps how you were motivated to engage in an endeavor to analyze Alcoholics Anonymous. When I found your site, my first question was why? Why is this author compelled to argue against a program that when practiced as outlined has but one aim- to help repair relationships- with a Higher Power, with oneself, and with others...

Best regards,

Bryce S.

Hello Bryce,

Thanks for the question. I just found your letter. I don't use Gmail because Google has no respect for anyone's privacy, and they read your email to figure out what advertisements to shove at you next. So I basically just use Gmail as a spam bucket. I found your letter while cleaning out the spam.

Now, for your question: I have given a lot of my background and autobiographical information. More than enough, considering that the web site is not about me. I am a 66-year-old hairy human, and my birth name was Terrance Hodgins, and I live in rural Oregon west of Portland.

And, I'm happy to say that I have 12, almost 13, years of sobriety now. That means no alcohol, no drugs, and no cigarettes. And my health is really better for it.

Here are some previous answers to the "who are you" question:

  1. who are you,
  2. who are you, again
  3. Who are you?
  4. How did you get to where you are?

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties with many years of relapsing. May I suggest that you especially look at the fourth item in the list above? It's about how to not relapse.

Have a good day now, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A wise man should consider that health is the greatest
**     of human blessings, and learn how by his own thought
**     to derive benefit from his illnesses.
**       ==  Hippocrates (460 BC — 377 BC), Regimen in Health

[The next letter from Bryce_S is below, here.]





June 02, 2013, Saturday, Waterfront Park in downtown Portland:

Canada Goose goslings
The little girl gosling asking for some more bread.

Canada Goose goslings

[More gosling photos below, here.]





[The previous letter from Meatbag is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters363.html#Meatbag ]

Date: Sat, August 3, 2013 4:26 pm       (answered 8 August 2013)
From: Meatbag
Subject: More greetings

Now I've had a chance to read your response. Didn't get an email about it, so I guess you're still having Hostmonster problems. I'll email you $10 or so once I actually get a paycheck.

Hello again, Meatbag,

Yes, Hostmonster presents a variety of problems. Fortunately, I just got an offer of free hosting on another system. I'm investigating and seeing what I have to do to move the forum over intact. The rest is easy.

Anyhow, sorry to hear about your physical troubles. Medications are kind of a pain in the butt. You might have to try a few different ones to find a painkiller that works. Doesn't help that a lot of doctors will refuse to prescribe the most effective ones because they're potentially addictive. The VA doctor might have decided you were a drug seeker.

In this case, I think the doctor was just overworked and backlogged. He finally responded to my first message (after I sent 3) and prescribed some weak painkillers that actually do work. I think the Tramadol was just the standard routine of try a non-narcotic painkiller first, to see if that works, and use the real painkillers as a last resort.

The painkillers that I'm getting don't eliminate the pain, but at least they take the edge off of the pain and make sleep a lot easier. So that's a big help.

I actually did have a discussion with one of my teachers. We watched this video that talked about a teenage girl who had a Vicodin-abusing friend. I went against the grain and said I wouldn't tell anybody if I was in that situation. Why? Nobody can make the friend quit, and I figure the adults around her would do more harm than good. Besides, in that specific situation, the drug abuse was just a way to cope with a broken home life.

So, yeah, the US has a fucked-up attitude towards drug use and addiction.

Oh yes. Coincidentally, I was talking about my problems with a woman who it turned out is a doctor — I didn't know that at the time — and she said that addiction is all in the head. She said that she was habituated to Vicodin for 18 months for severe painful spinal problems, and then she just quit cold turkey when her pain problems were finally taken care of surgically. Three days of readjustment and she was just fine.

I had to agree. I also just quit all of my addictions one day.

The idea that we are powerless over our addictions has caused a lot of harm to a lot of people. And it causes doctors and the legal authorities to be really weird about narcotics. They think that Grandma is supposed to die in agony so that she won't get addicted to painkillers. That's insane.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Man is subject to innumerable pains and sorrows by the very condition
**     of humanity, and yet, as if nature had not sown evils enough in life,
**     we are continually adding grief to grief and aggravating the common
**     calamity by our cruel treatment of one another.
**        ==  Joseph Addison (1672—1719), English essayist, critic, poet





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters363.html#Pbotz ]

Date: Thu, August 8, 2013 8:20 am       (answered 12 August 2013)
From: Pbotz
Subject: hey

hello orange who are u excetely. reason i ask is i am in aa and believe no doubt aa is a cult.... are u a lincense doctor or someone who has true evidence of what aa is ..... how are these facts proven true of the orange papers? please write back

Date: Thu, August 8, 2013 8:23 am       (answered 12 August 2013)
From: Pbotz
Subject: hey

what do u feel are the strongest methods to recovery or alternatives to aa. please contact me 917-xxx-xxxx or can u give suggestions. i believe no doubt aa is a cult.. or txt me .

Hello Pbotz,

Thanks for the questions. I answered them before, so I'll point you to the answers.

I am a 66-year-old hairy human, and my birth name was Terrance Hodgins, and I live in rural Oregon west of Portland. I am not a doctor, although I did study some pre-med and majored in biology. I was a computer programmer for most of my professional life.

Canada Goose goslings and me

And, I'm happy to say that I have 12, almost 13, years of sobriety now. That means no alcohol, no drugs, and no cigarettes. And my health is really better for it.

Here are some previous answers to the "who are you" question:

  1. who are you,
  2. who are you, again
  3. Who are you?

Now, for some hints and kinks and techniques for quitting and staying sober, I wrote up a few letters describing some of mine:

Have a good day, and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Protect your health. Without it you face a serious handicap
**     for success and happiness.
**       ==  Harry F. Banks





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters363.html#MDW ]

Date: Thu, August 8, 2013 7:42 am       (answered 12 August 2013)
From: "MD W."
Subject: [Anti — 12 step programs] http://t.co/ZWTZuNsudb

MD Weaver posted in Anti — 12 step programs

http://t.co/ZWTZuNsudb

Top L.A. Addiction Experts Assert That an Abstinence-Only Approach to Addiction Keeps 85% of Addicts Away From Treatment...

Drs. Marc Kern and Adi Jaffe believe that our current abstinence-only approach to treatment is only furthering our society's wide-spread addiction problem.

http://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2Funinstaalled%2Fpermalink%2F635080759849786%2F&
aref=220388387&medium=email&mid=86dab7fG25f2680eGd22dc23G96&
bcode=1.1375972945.AbmXEc8ZhQc1RWyB&n_m=orange%40orange-papers.info

Hello MD,

Thank you for the find. That is good. I quite agree. When you are deep in an alcohol addiction, the thought of quitting forever is frightening. It sounds like you are going to loose your best and only friend in your life. And your little Lizard Brain will scream that you will never have any fun again. Sometimes it helps if people kind of ease into the idea, even if they need to totally quit. Start off with the idea of cutting down, or just quitting for three months.

And of course, some people do not need to totally quit. As I've said many times, the Rand Corporation study study found that, of all of the alcoholics who quit self-destructive drinking, half of the recovered alcoholics did it by total abstinence, while the other half did it by just tapering off into moderate, controlled, drinking. Whatever works for you.

Dr. Marc Kern is an interesting person. He has been on the board of directors of both SMART and Rational Recovery. There is more about him here:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters130.html#NIH

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If the thought of quitting drinking forever makes you feel like you are
**     going to lose your best friend, then alcohol is probably your worst enemy.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters363.html#MDW2 ]

Date: Thu, August 8, 2013 7:39 am       (answered 12 August 2013)
From: "MD W."
Subject: [Anti — 12 step programs] AA is a Cult/Alcoholics Anonymous is a Cult

MD W. posted in Anti — 12 step programs

AA is a Cult/Alcoholics Anonymous is a Cult

AA Is Dogmatic.

It's difficult to label as dogmatic an organization in which the most important guiding principles (the 12 steps) are only "suggestions." But despite this disclaimer, a great many AA members are extremely dogmatic. They regard the 12 steps with the reverence that a fundamentalist has for the Ten Commandments, and they regard the "Big Book" as a fundamentalist would the Bible. Anyone doubting this should attend a few AA meetings. At most meetings, even mild criticism of the steps or the "Big Book" will be met with sarcasm, anger, and put-downs. For AA true believers, the steps and the "Big Book" are received wisdom (which, indeed, Bill Wilson believed them to be); and they are to be blindly followed, not questioned.

Further confirmation of AA's dogmatism is provided by its attitude toward the very many alcohol abusers who investigate AA but can't stomach its program. Rather than attempt to see why so many alcohol abusers reject AA (remember, these are oftentimes desperate individuals urgently seeking help), and whether anything — changes in the AA program, referral to the many existing alternative programs — can be done to help them, AA does nothing to help these vulnerable people, and instead blames them for rejecting AA, maintaining that the reason they can't stand AA is their "character defects," their lack of "honesty," or their lack of a genuine desire to stop drinking. This happens In every single case. And there have been millions. To its dogmatic members, the AA program is perfect; the problem lies solely with those who reject it.

This is the attitude of a callous, dogmatic religious sect, not that of a rational, humanistic organization concerned with helping those afflicted by what it insists is a deadly "illness."

http://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2Funinstaalled%2Fpermalink%2F635079973183198%2F&
aref=220388387&medium=email&mid=86daaecG25f2680eGd22dc23G96&
bcode=1.1375972798.Abkjb3tE-RHeahX2&n_m=orange%40orange-papers.info

Hello again, MD,

I agree with all of your points. Not coincidentally, I have some of them listed as standard A.A. bait-and-switch tricks:

Also, several of your points are standard cult characteristics that are listed in the Cult Test:

Okay, I guess that's enough points for now.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "These are people who know God's will far better than God."
**         ==  Jan Baer, Lost in translation 





June 02, 2013, Saturday, Waterfront Park in downtown Portland:

Canada Goose goslings
The Mother and 3 Goslings, asking for some more bread.

Canada Goose goslings

Canada Goose goslings

Canada Goose goslings

[The story of the goslings continues here.]





[The previous letter from Bryce_S is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters363.html#Bryce_S2 ]

Date: Thu, August 8, 2013 3:43 pm       (answered 12 August 2013)
From: "Bryce S."
Subject: Re: Your question about the Orange Papers

Orange,

These are all things that I have heard in the rooms of AA for the past 17 years and am happy to hear this is what has enabled you to solve your problem, and that you share it with people who visit your site searching for answers.

Lastly, but certainly not least, and not to make light of it, this really is the answer:

Just don't take that first drink, not ever, no matter what.

That is the answer to all questions about drinking, or "just having one".

Just don't smoke that first cigarette, not ever, no matter what.

Likewise, this is obvious.

Play the tape to the end.

Imagine the situation as a movie on videotape. Don't just think about the next hour or two, and how much fun a little drinking may be. Play the tape all the way to the end, and see the full-blown relapse and readdiction and sickness and shame and poverty, and how disappointed you will feel with yourself, and how hard it will be to quit again...

That works for me.

Failure is not an option!

The issue I really came to understand is and what the book Alcoholics Anonymous and the Big Book Awakening has taught me, which of course is a matter of opinion and like everything else as you argue about AA, is unprovable:

p.32
"Though there is no way of proving it, we believe that early in our drinking careers most of us could have stopped drinking. But the difficulty is that few alcoholics have enough desire to stop while there is yet time. We have heard of a few instances where people, who showed definite signs of alcoholism, were able to stop for a long period because of an overpowering desire to do so..."

More poignantly,

p.34
"For those who are unable to drink moderately the question is how to stop altogether. We are assuming, of course, that the reader desires to stop. Whether such a person can quit upon a nonspiritual basis depends upon the extent to which he has already lost the power to choose whether he will drink or not. Many of us felt that we had plenty of character. There was a tremendous urge to cease forever. Yet we found it impossible. This is the baffling feature of alcoholism as we know it — this utter inability to leave it alone, no matter how great the necessity or the wish."

From the sounds of things you took your negative experience of AA and made a personal conquest to debunk it based on the fact that you are very likely non-alcoholic / addict as are so many people sitting in the rooms of 12 step programs.

When you drink or smoke again after having tried repeatedly (dry for 4.5 years twice over and truly in my heart believed i would and could never drink or use again) to just not drink no matter what seems to fall a little short for someone like me- a real alcoholic/addict. It sounds like you are the case the book describes on

p.20-21,
"Then we have a certain type of hard drinker. He may have the habit badly enough to gradually impair
21
him physically and mentally. It may cause him to die a few years before his time. If a sufficiently strong reason — ill health, falling in love, change of environment, or the warning of a doctor — becomes operative, this man can also stop or moderate, although he may find it difficult and troublesome and may even need medical attention."

I am happy to lay aside my prejudice and what I think I know to consider that perhaps you nor me will ever know the truth one way or another. I know I am peaceful and happy and try to help others (not sure how this can ever be measured) I also feel a profound sense of purpose and direction in life now compared with previously during non-drinking and using periods. If I need to say AA is wrong and a cult to have taught me this through practice of the 12 steps, then I guess you are right.

~Bryce

Hello Bryce,

Thanks for the response.

Alas, you are using the standard A.A. escape of declaring that people who successfully quit drinking without A.A. were not "real alcoholics". It's the Real Scotsman Logical Fallacy once again:

  1. Declare that alcoholics are powerless over alcohol.

  2. When someone points out an alcoholic who quit drinking by an act of strong willpower and determination, declare that he wasn't a "real alcoholic". If he was a real alcoholic, he would have been powerless over alcohol.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Everybody from my doctor to family and friends all agree that I was an alcoholic. (Look at a little of my personal history, here, and here.) The only people who say that I am not, or was not, an alcoholic are A.A. members who don't want to hear that alcoholics are not powerless over alcohol, and Step 1 is wrong.

Those following supporting quotes that you copied from the Big Book just show what a con artist Bill Wilson really was. He just kept on yammering that you need his cult, and you will die without his cult. Then he left himself an escape hatch: If you can quit drinking without his cult, then you weren't a real alcoholic. Yes, it's the Real Scotsman Logical Fallacy once again.

The "hard drinker/alcoholic" dichotomy is just a word game, and another logical fallacy: False Dichotomy. As one wit said, poor drunkards are alcoholics, rich drunkards are "hard drinkers".

Then you finished with another logical fallacy and propaganda trick: Antirationalism: "...perhaps you nor me will ever know the truth one way or another."

Yes, we can know the truth. In fact, we already do. Life is not all just a big mystery where nothing can be proven. We can prove: Alcoholics are not powerless over alcohol. The vast majority of successful quitters do it alone, without A.A. or any so-called "support group" or "program".

The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism of the National Institutes of Health, performed the 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions. For it, they interviewed over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
"About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment."

The Harvard Mental Health Letter, from The Harvard Medical School, stated quite plainly:

On their own
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction — Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)

I'm happy to say that we are not powerless over alcohol, or tobacco, or heroin, or cocaine, or crystal meth, or any other addictions.

Have a good day, and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Never was there a study that substance abusers were suffering
**     from a lack of spirituality, thus being the reason they got
**     addicted. This is how AA approaches the problem, condemning
**     the addict as being spiritually sick without any proof.
**     ==  Submitted by SallyJ on February 3, 2013 — 9:26pm.
**         Comments to Psychology Today article,
**         "Does 12-step Treatment Work by Inducing PTSD?"
**         http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/addicted-brains/201301/does-12-step-treatment-work-inducing-ptsd/comments?page=5 





June 02, 2013, Saturday, Waterfront Park in downtown Portland:

Canada Goose goslings
Now the kids are taking a bath.

Canada Goose goslings

Canada Goose goslings
Woman on Beach

Canada Goose goslings
Couple on Beach

[The story of the goslings continues here.]





[The previous letter from Elisa is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters363.html#Elisa ]

Date: Mon, August 5, 2013 9:11 pm       (answered 15 August 2013)
From: "Elisa"
Subject: Re: Hey

Well I understand a little better where you are coming from now. I too would be very upset if I saw friends and loved ones choose to use rather that to belong to a 12 step program if they assume that is the only way to stay sober. I do not "drink the koolaid" as you put it, but I do find comfort in the fellowship of people who are choosing to live their lives clean.

I feel like a lot of the things you mentioned about AA are well known at this point, such as what a psycho a-hole Bill Wilson was. So if you have an issue with the program of AA, which seems to be based on your loss of people due to the disease of addiction and the "lie" they are being fed that 12 step recovery is the only way. Why don't you try promoting other methods?? Since you feel that AA is actually hurting people it seems like it would benefit your cause of sorts more to provide better alternatives of help promote successful treatment options. Spending this much effort to spread negative information about any cultish group ever the Masons or Scientology comes across as unnecessary. I can not imagine how much hated and anger would have to go into this work that you do. I would strongly encourage you to promote other options. That would not only make a more positive impact in the long run. It may make you happier too :)
Thanks
Elisa

Hello again, Elisa,

Thanks for the reply. I do promote other methods. I talk about SMART so much that I fear that some people might think that I'm just a salesman for the organization. And I also push SOS and WFS. Here is the whole list of better, evidence-based methods that I recommend people check out:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-alt_list.html

And please, it isn't just about the fates of two girls. They were just the first things that I saw. Please read the A.A. horror stories. And if you get through them, you can read about the "no medications" tragedies, and then the suicides. Then you can read about the sexual exploitation clubs:

  1. The list of A.A. horror stories.
  2. A.A. "No Meds" Stories.
  3. A.A. Suicides.
  4. Stories of sexual exploition in the Midtown Group of Alcoholics Anonymous
  5. Clancy Imusland's Pacific Group.

This statement is just plain wrong:

"Spending this much effort to spread negative information about any cultish group ever the Masons or Scientology comes across as unnecessary."

It is very much necessary. A.A. runs a propaganda mill that is constantly promoting the A.A. quack cure. Someone has to tell the truth to counteract their river of lies. There are some examples here: Pro-A.A. Propaganda, analyzed.

In just the last few days, National Geographic, of all things, ran an article that is pure A.A. propaganda and quackery. The author claims that the 12-Step program is the best and most successful cure, based on no actual evidence or medical testing at all. Check it out. Also see the long list of over 450 comments, including three of mine, under the name Terrance Hodgins:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/08/130809-addiction-twelve-steps-alcoholics-anonymous-science-neurotheology-psychotherapy-dopamine/#

Then you said,

"I can not imagine how much hated and anger would have to go into this work that you do."

Sorry, but A.A. has planted a bad idea in your mind. It is not a matter of anger and hatred. It's a matter of being determined to tell the truth for the benefit of people who need to know the truth. It is possible to speak truth without being consumed with anger and hatred.

A.A. poisons people's minds and cripples them by telling them that if they oppose the lies of A.A. that they have a "resentment", and that is a bad thing. Bill Wilson even said that if you "have a resentment" that you are "axiomatically spiritually wrong":

It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us. If somebody hurts us and we are sore, we are in the wrong also. But are there no exceptions to this rule? What about "justifiable" anger? If somebody cheats us, aren't we entitled to be mad? Can't we be properly angry with self-righteous folk? For us in A.A. these are dangerous exceptions. We have found that justified anger ought to be left to those better qualified to handle it.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 90.

["Gee, duh... somebody just shot my friend dead in the middle of the street, and raped my girlfriend, and kicked my dog. But I'm not going to get disturbed about it, because Bill Wilson says that if I did, it would axiomatically mean that there is something spiritually wrong with me... Duh..."]

You see? Bill teaches that you cannot fight back against evil. He wanted his followers to be emotionally crippled. What a neat way for a cult leader to keep his followers from rebelling.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     Note that any- and everything that keeps you from appreciating
**     your spiritual source is an impediment. This particularly
**     includes relying on someone else or some organization without
**     examining the truths that they insist you believe.
**       ==  Dr. Wayne Dyer, Inspiration Perpetual Flip Calendar, 19 December
*
**     Truth is a necessity if you're ever going to live in harmony with Spirit
**     and become a source of inspiration for the people you encounter.
**     == Dr. Wayne Dyer, Inspiration Perpetual Flip Calendar, 5 April
*
**     Speak truth to power.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters363.html#Steve_S ]

Date: Mon, August 12, 2013 5:18 am       (answered 15 August 2013)
From: "Steve S."
Subject: Religion vs. Spirituality Page

Hi

I wrote you long ago, and somehow stumbled on that subject topic page this morning, just after going to a meeting last night where it was said that AA is about Spirituality and not Religion. Most of these meetings I only sit and listen to avoid the 'glaring eyes' that occurs most often when I speak, but will say that after some meetings I'm approached one on one by someone who will say something positive. Point is, it says right in the book that 'the religious folks were right all along'...and not far from these in Bill's Story, "we were reborn!".

If one knows bible text fairly well they will see text transliterated out of the Good Book (which was used in the beginning). The 12 Steps didn't just pop up out of thin air, the people were already sober, then they must have back tracked to see what was done and came upon a consensus.

Hello again, Steve,

Thanks for the letter. I understand that thing about not being able to tell the truth in A.A. meetings. That's one of the big reasons why I don't go.

You are quite right about A.A. being religious. Half of the 12 Steps mention God directly or indirectly, the same as in the Ten Commandments.

Alas, that story of the creation of the 12 Steps is a complete fairy tale. No truth to it whatsoever. The truth is that Bill Wilson just wrote down Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion recruiting and indoctrination practices, the "Five C's" and the "Six Practices of the Sane", to make the 12 Steps. Bill Wilson even said so. You can get the whole story here: Bill Wilson Writes The Steps.

To start as a header and premise: I did not 'get sober' in AA. Only after stopping going did "it Happen"..and it was most definitely God. It was what some would call the Christian Mystic Experiential Faith..but in that, and through that, and finally following up..I can see that Christ was 100 percent correct. No one matches him. He was an anomaly of the human race and couldn't have been made up..no one had the capacity to have made him up...even the writers couldn't fully appreciate that magnitude of his "genius' but only this I know, "Christ and Christ Crucified". Who on earth could have made the claim "I AM the Resurrection". Like C.S> Lewis wrote, he was either completely insane or exactly who he said he was and is..and considering that Christianity (as opposed to Churchianity) has flourished and resulted in some of the greatest scientists known today responsible for such as Planck's Theory and Doppler Radar just for minute starters, I'd say that's far from insane).

— Decided to believe in God.
— Came to the Knowledge of God and His Wisdom through HIS actions and not ours (otherwise, 'we would not be able to understand Him"). Yet many will take that statement as, 'came to believe in a god as I understand that god to be"..rather than.."A Loving God, who is just that in our group conscious, who will restore us to fullness and maybe bring us to consciousness or Enlightenment, as we draw closer to Him and Understand what He is saying to Us". Otherwise, it is shaping god in man's image rather than man being form in God's Image (God is Spirit, and those who worship Him worship in Spirit and in Truth).
— Repentance and Confession covers many of the other steps
— Remaining in communication with Him and continue to see where we are falling short
— Forgiveness forgiveness forgiveness... rather than focusing on overcoming resentments.

The Program never says, and therefore denies, the Power of the Risen Christ and the Spirit of Truth because of it although Bill briefly and with an air of arrogance (seemingly) mentions Christ. Jesus is mentioned a few more times as well scattered throughout the book, but people seem to be blind to it.

Define Religion, Define Spirituality...there are many different definitions..for one could be that our very lives are a reflection of the focus of how we choose to live and what brings us to the most fulfillment: Religion. Satanism can be a form of spirituality by definition of 'the prince of the power of the air"...Scary Thought... "Power of the air could end up being a Higher Power if it brings one to slash religion and deny who Jesus is"..."Satan" or Evil is perfectly happy with bringing us a 'good life' as long as Christ is denied.

ChristiansVictorious has implemented the 12 step process as well..Christ is working in to all these 12 steps programs somehow someway..some will See it, some will not. I'm not sure you even have, Orange.

There's simply no doubt in my mind..even the responsibility statement is taken straight from Romans 15"1-6 (which always reflects the Group Conscious).

Is there other ways to 'get sober'? Sure..but being sober, sober minded, and being Given Life are not all the same things. An atheist can become sober..but remain ignorant to God and His Knowledge. How is it possible to come to The Knowledge of God if God doesn't even exist? As is written by one of the prophets: "My people suffer from lack of Knowledge!"

"Knowledge!"

Yes, you have noticed that A.A. is not a Christian religion, in spite of their claims that the A.A. philosophy is compatible with all religions.

Have you read the file The Heresy of the Twelve Steps? Especially note the part where the A.A. enthusiasts were yammering that God gave them A.A., and A.A. gave them God. When I asked them which "God" A.A. gave them, and whether it had anything to do with Jesus Christ, they called me a blind fuckwit. I asked them a simple direct honest question about their "god", and they refused to answer it. Now what religion is that?

By the way, the 12 Steps are not a good therapy program for any disease or condition. Dr. Frank Buchman made up those cult practices — practices, not "spiritual principles" — for recruiting and indoctrinating new members of his cult religion. Then Bill Wilson just wrote down all of that stuff and called them "The 12 Steps". (Look here.)

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     "It is written in the scriptures that God said,
**     'My temple will be called a house of prayer for the people of all nations.'
**     But you have made it into a hideout for thieves!"
**        ==  Jesus Christ, quoted in Mark 11:15.
**             Also see Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45.
*
**     Reagan professed to believe in the fundamentalist Christian
**     doctrine that the end of the world was at hand.  At the very
**     least, this should have called into question his concern for
**     the nation's long-term welfare.  Unburdened by such mundane
**     cares, he cast aside all restraint in the pursuit of economic
**     "growth," and financed the next phase of suburban
**     expansion by encouraging the greatest accumulation of debt
**     in world history.  Why worry about borrowing from the future
**     when you don't believe in the future?
**       ==  James H. Kunstler, The Geography of Nowhere, p 110.





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Last updated 30 October 2013.
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