Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLXII



[The previous letter from Elisa is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Elisa ]

Date: Wed, July 31, 2013 4:21 am       (answered 2 August 2013)
From: "Elisa"
Subject: Re: Hey

Thank you so much for replying I really enjoy conversing with you. So I don't have 3 1/2 yrs yet just 2 1/2. Thank you none the less.

YOLO means you only live once.its something the rap and r&b singer drake came up with. It is very popular among young people. I also think it is the worst phrase ever. I would totally rob a store and shoot up a bank I mean you only live once right? See why I don't like it???

The depression thing is true that is part of the life's terms I was referring to. Growing up with a 12 step parent wasn't the issue. He wasn't vocal about any of that. The issue was being raised by my mother who is a narcissistic mentally incapacitated manipulative abusive woman. I was/am an extremely hyperactive ADHD child and my mom only knew religion, verbal, and physical abuse to control me. As an adult I make the choice to get treated for these issues.

I don't feel NA is the only way to get clean or stay clean. I feel like I enjoy my life more being involved in this program. I do feel AA got a bit dogma like and I don't attend those type of meetings. I also do not attend AA meetings any more because I do not like people promoting Bill Wilson or any other individual person.

I do not feel that one has to berate themselves and go about flogging themselves for wrong doings. I do feel that I no longer want to "live dirty" for the most part I mean not stealing from stores or pawing other people's things. I am not going for sainthood, nor do I try to act like it. Growing up in a cult (small Pentecostal makeshift churches in hotels and campgrounds), I might tend to be a little more tolerant of what I see as no more cultist than my local Baptist church.

This awful parenting was 95% my mom by the way. My dad the recovered alcoholic made mistakes true, but the biggest one was allowing my mother to raise his children. My parents separated when I was 7, and my dad was working while my mom stayed at home before that.

All of those reasons to not do heroin did not mean anything to me when I chose to stop. The only reason I stopped is because my scam was running out and I didn't want to go to jail or live on the streets with my abusive ex-husband (go figure I married my mom except he drank and used drugs). I would have easily returned to my active addiction when things settled down sharing needles, homeless, broke, the whole 9 yards if I hadn't gone to NA because it gave me a sense of security. Not because it is the most amazing program ever. I do not credit it for my success clean. I do credit my hard work and the love and support I received from those involved.

What I am trying to figure out is your reason for all of the time and research into these programs. I mean its interesting to see statistics and see if there may be some more effective methods of treatment, but why do you care? That is what I am curious about.

My favorite part about NA is that in the meetings I have heard others share that finding a God of their understanding meant they didn't have to worry about the God of others understandings. THAT is my personal spiritual principle, or dogma or whatever the heck you want to call it because your opinion is just that no matter how scientific it is or not. I personally believe that perception defines a persons reality and reality is most certainly an individual thing. That is where I find the freedom to let my mom be her nutso religious self and stay the heck away from her. Something I needed to learn my whole life, but didn't understand was okay to do until I talked to people from NA. Also I would not have gotten to the point on my own where I realized if that's the way she wants to live her life, God bless her it must work for her. Her perception is her reality.

So in parting I would ask again. Why do you care? This is what I want to know. I have my own love for NA and a way of life that works just fine for me. People can go or not go I could care less as long as they are happy and healthy, and if they aren't (like my ex) than I can feel sorry for them without needing to fix them. I would like to know why you have spent time and effort into this research and what you are trying to achieve. How do you benefit from it if it is not for a feeling of vindication?

Thanks
Elisa
Sent from my iPad

Hello Elisa,

Thanks for the letter, and I'm really glad to hear that you are doing well.

If you get some emotional comfort from N.A. meetings, then so be it. Please just don't drink the Koolaid.

Thanks for the explanation of your childhood and upbringing. That helps to understand things.

The answer to your question,

"What I am trying to figure out is your reason for all of the time and research into these programs. I mean its interesting to see statistics and see if there may be some more effective methods of treatment, but why do you care? That is what I am curious about."

Is: to get the truth out there. A.A. runs a non-stop propaganda machine that tells a lot of lies and sucks a huge number of people into a program that kills more people than it saves. Literally. So it isn't just a matter of statistics. It's a matter of piles of dead bodies.

Why do I care? That's a good question. I can tell you about the friends and acquaintances whom I have seen die. There have been so many. When you see confused people desperately trying to figure out what will really work for them to save their lives, and a bunch of brainwashed fools shove an old cult religion on them, and insist that it's the best way, or the only way, and cause them to fail, and die, that matters to me.

The effort that I put into this web site is nothing compared to what A.A. and the 12-Step industry put into their propaganda and promotion. Right now there is a broadway play touring the country telling a totally fictitious story about the founding of Alcoholics Anonymous. It erroneously says that Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith got together in Akron in 1935 and suddenly figured out a magical way to make the alcoholics quit drinking with the help of God. The play doesn't tell anything like the truth, which is that Bill and Bob were actually recruiting alcoholics for Dr. Frank Nathan Daniel Buchman's fascistic cult religion — "The Oxford Group" — while Frank Buchman went to Nuremberg Nazi Party rallies and Sieg-Heiled Adolf Hitler, and there was no Alcoholics Anonymous organization in 1935, or 1936, or 1937. There was only the Oxford Group. Bill and Bob believed that Frank's strange, heretical, occult religion was the magical cure for alcoholism, and that's what they were promoting, and that's what they were recruiting alcoholics for. And Frank's crazy religion is still the cure that A.A. is selling today. But that play won't tell you that.

You can see many more examples of grossly dishonest A.A. propaganda here:
http://www.orange-papers.info/menu1.html#proAA
Please check them out.

You see, they have hundreds of propagandists, and I am just one guy. What I'm doing isn't nearly as extreme as what they are doing. And my motive is not to suck people into "treatment programs" that cost tens of thousands of dollars and don't really work to help the addicts. And my motive is not to promote a lying cult religion.

In closing, you asked again,

So in parting I would ask again. Why do you care? This is what I want to know.

Please read about these two girls:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "It finally dawned on me that just because one's motive
**     isn't money doesn't mean one's motive isn't selfish.
**     (There is more than one form of profit.)"
**        ==  Janet S.

[The next letter from Elisa is here.]





June 02, 2013, Saturday, downtown Portland:

Boats at marina
Boats at the marina

Canada Goose goslings
The Marina

Canada Goose goslings
The Marina

Canada Geese
The Geese at the Grassy Bay, eating rolled oats

[More gosling photos below, here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Ctmjon ]

Date: Wed, July 31, 2013 4:03 pm       (answered 5 August 2013)
From: "Ctmjon"
Subject: Fwd: Dead Cow Lecture

THE DEAD COW LECTURE:

This is the best example for paying attention that I have ever heard.

First-year students at the Purdue Vet School were attending their first anatomy class with a real dead cow. They all gathered around the surgery table with the body covered with a white sheet. The professor started the class by telling them, "In Veterinary medicine it is necessary to have two important qualities as a doctor. The first is that you not be disgusted by anything involving the animal's body." For an example, the professor pulled back the sheet, stuck his finger in the butt of the cow, withdrew it, and stuck his finger in his mouth. "Go ahead and do the same thing," he told his students.

The students freaked out, hesitated for several minutes, but eventually took turns sticking a finger in the butt of the dead cow and sucking on it.

When everyone finished, the Professor looked at them and said,......... "The second most important quality is observation. I stuck in my middle finger and sucked on my index finger. Now learn to pay attention. Life's tough but it's even tougher if you're stupid."

Hello again, Ctmjon,

Thanks for the laugh. And it has a point, too.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*
**     Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite. Do you know what Doorknob
**     Almighty is vulnerable to? Rust. Rust and tarnish and corrosion.
**     Don't let your Doorknob rust, or you will lose your immortality!
*
**     A sense of humor keen enough to show a man his own absurdities,
**     as well as those of other people, will keep him from the
**     commission of all sins or nearly all, save those that are
**     worth committing.
**       ==  Samuel Butler (d. 1902),
**           "Lord, What Is Man?" Note-Books (1912).





[The previous letter from Douglas_G is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Douglas_G ]

Date: Wed, July 31, 2013 3:59 pm       (answered 5 August 2013)
From: "Douglas G."
Subject: Re: AA

Hi Mr. Orange,

All of your statements, although via your interpretation appear valid, you only know what is written and then only through your jaundiced and prejudiced mindset.

I on the other hand have something you do nor possess: experience!

To truly understand AA is to understand the spirit. The Broad and Roomy all inclusive never exclusive attitude. However, like the Bible there are plenty of contradictions. One can focus on that as you do or one can find that which resonates with them — that is what the successful people in AA do. It all comes down to good sponsorship. Unfortunately there are plenty of bad ones.

One has to match personal experience with information in order to truly understand AA. Your viscous attack on that which has saved many lives leaves me baffled. I can only wonder what terrible experience you had to create such venom towards a society that is more open than any religious group on Earth!

I pity you. It must be miserable to spend your time trying to undermine such a beautiful and life saving society.

We will have to agree to disagree as I know your type. Fundamentalist are convinced they are right no matter what the argument. Unbeknownst to you — you are a fundamentalist. Very very Sad! Good luck and I hope you find true

Sincerely,

Doug G.

*"People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care!"*

Hello again, Douglas,

Thanks for the reply. What you are saying boils down to an ad hominem attack of, "You don't know what you are talking about." You are also Claiming to Have Special or Secret Knowledge.

Now I don't want to brag about my personal spiritual experiences, but I will say that I have had a number of them — profound, life-changing, awe-inspiring experiences. And I will tell you how I got them: psychedelic drugs.

Now you may consider them invalid because of how they were induced, but if you do, then you have to also dismiss all of Bill Wilson's spiritual experiences as invalid because that's how he got them, too. Bill loved LSD and said that it gave him the same wonderful religious feeling as he got from belladonna in Charlie Towns' hospital in December of 1934. So there goes the whole "spiritual experience" underpinning of Alcoholics Anonymous.

More important than how you get an experience is what you do with it. In many ways, spiritual experiences are like going to a university and attending a lecture, and listening to a professor pass on his wisdom. What do you do with it after you leave the lecture hall? That's what will change your life, or not change anything. It's up to you.

Which leads to: There is also the experience of having 12, almost 13, years of sobriety now. That is also an experience that I value. I value it much, much more than sitting in an A.A. meeting room for years.

Heck, I value the experience of feeding and caring for baby goslings much more than any experience related to A.A.

I find it both funny and sad when A.A. members denounce me quoting their own Big Book, and deny that it says what it says: "However, like the Bible there are plenty of contradictions." One minute, the Big Book is the World of God as handed down to Bill Wilson, and the next minute, it's just a mess of contradictions that we should ignore. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt, is it?

Lastly, A.A. has not "saved many lives". A.A. merely deceives sick people, and fools some of them into believing that they have to do the practices of an old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties, or else bad things will happen. They don't have to, and doing so does not make people get sober, or keep them sober. All that A.A. really does is steal the credit from a few people who were going to quit drinking anyway.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "One of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous [Bill Wilson]
**     described to me the transcendental experience he credits
**     with giving him control over his compulsive drinking.
**     Years later he took LSD five or six times. This, he
**     said, reinstated his original ecstasy, and consequently
**     he wishes that LSD were more available to alcoholics."
**     == Walter Houston Clark. Chemical Ecstasy: Psychedelic
**     Drugs and Religion, p 101. Sheed & Ward, New York, 1969.
**
**     Note: Bill took LSD for two years, not just 5 or 6 times. 

[The next letter from Douglas_G is below, here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Andrea ]

Date: Fri, August 2, 2013 10:20 am       (answered 5 August 2013)
From: "Andrea C."
Subject: Lying Old Timers

Orange,

I got out last year. The last straw was seeing my sponsor who claimed to have 14 years one night coming out of a local bar clearly stumbling. There was no mistake. I didn't confront her that night but waited for her to show up the next day at our home meeting. I told her what I saw and she denied it. That was my last meeting.

I wonder how many old timers claim to have many years while they continue to drink yet still show up at meetings? In any case, it's almost a year now and I stay sober out of spite, it's much easier than going to meetings and my life has dramatically improved.

Thanks for your site, I come here sometimes for inspiration,
Andrea

Hello Andrea,

Thanks for the letter and the compliments. Welcome to freedom. May you have many years of health and happiness.

Yes, I've received several letters where people found that their sponsors and other "old-timers" in the group were secretly drinking. Some people just want the status of "oldtimer" so bad that they are willing to lie to get it.

That also throws more doubt on the official sobriety numbers that are published by the A.A. headquarters. When such a secretly-drinking sponsor fills out one of those triennial survey forms, she is almost certain to repeat the lie about how many years of sobriety she has. She does not want the group secretary to say, when he is later adding up the numbers on the forms, "Hey! Nobody claimed 14 years of sobriety! What??"

So you know that the A.A. headquarters is getting back a lot of misinformation, and their published numbers are worthless.

Have a good day now, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    To have freedom is only to have what is absolutely necessary to enable
**    us to be what we ought to be, and to possess what we ought to possess.
**      ==  Rahel





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Pearl_G ]

Date: Sat, August 3, 2013 6:30 pm       (answered 6 August 2013)
From: "Pearl G."
Subject: Application for approval

Hi, i'm from Sydney, Australia. Trying to find an approach to sobriety beyond AA.

Thx,
P

Hello Pearl,

Thanks for the letter.

Here you are:

  1. How did you get to where you are?
  2. The list of sane, realistic, recovery organizations and methods:
    http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-alt_list.html

Have a good day and a good life now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Success is simple. Do what's right, the right way, at the right time."
**          ==  Arnold H. Glasgow





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Gary_B ]

Date: Sat, August 3, 2013 6:39 pm       (answered 6 August 2013)
From: "Gary B."
Subject: [Orange Papers] About The Sinclair Method (TSM)

Gary B. posted in Orange Papers

About The Sinclair Method (TSM)
http://naltrexoneconfidential.com/about/

Definitive statement about The Sinclair Method by Dr. John David Sinclair. The Sinclair Method (TSM) uses the nervous system's own mechanism, called "extinction", for gradually removing the interest...

Reply to this email to comment on this post.

http://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2Faorange%2Fpermalink%2F568897273173445%2F&
aref=220041311&medium=email&mid=867ae1bG25f2680eGd1d905fG96&
bcode=1.1375580398.AbnDmTbRirnAf04c&n_m=orange%40orange-papers.info

Hello again, Gary,

Thanks for the link. I'm hearing more and more good things about naltrexone.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    The Carl Sagan rule:
**    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
**    The far-fetched claims of Bill Wilson that Frank Buchman's
**    cult religion could cure alcoholism have not been backed
**    up by even a little ordinary evidence, never mind some
**    extraordinary evidence.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Devlin_O ]

Date: Sun, August 4, 2013 7:37 am       (answered 6 August 2013)
From: "Devlin O."
Subject: [Orange Papers] According to our best psychiatric evidence, if...

Devlin O. posted in Orange Papers

According to our best psychiatric evidence, if you are hearing God, you are having a psychotic episode. So basically, AA and NA have convinced a whole group of people to replace their drinking and drugging with the active pursuit of a psychotic episode.

Isn't that one of reasons we were using in the first place? Before we learned that drugs killed you, we discovered that drugs worked. They change the way you feel.

Now, I'll agree that the sober pursuit of a psychotic break is physically safer than the terminal disease of active addiction — at least until the break — but it doesn't address addiction in any significant way. It's beneficial to society, no doubt, and it's a great relief to an overwhelmed criminal justice system, not to mention the fact that it's free and they know where you are, but it strikes me as nothing more than a hollow shell game. In other words, don't sell me shit and call it roses. I'm not buying it anymore.

Reply to this email to comment on this post.

http://www.facebook.com/n/?groups%2Faorange%2Fpermalink%2F569126349817204%2F&
aref=220041311&medium=email&mid=8686458G25f2680eGd1d905fG96&
bcode=1.1375627050.Abl5mUMRMx8mwGVt&n_m=orange%40orange-papers.info

Hello Devlin,

Good points. I love the way that you phrase it, "the active pursuit of a psychotic episode."

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "We are not cured of alcoholism. What we have is a daily reprieve
**     contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition. Every day
**     is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our
**     daily activities."
**       == The Big Book, 3rd & 4th editions, William G. Wilson,
**             Chapter 6, Into Action, page 85.





June 02, 2013, Saturday, Waterfront Park in downtown Portland:

Canada Goose goslings
A Mother Goose with 3 babies, eating rolled oats, rice, and bread. They prefer the bread.

Canada Goose goslings
One baby and Mother

Beach scene
The beach scene, looking south.

Beach scene
The beach scene, looking north.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Richard_B ]

Date: Mon, August 5, 2013 12:28 pm       (answered 6 August 2013)
From: "Richard B."
Subject: Greek Medicine — The Hippocratic Oath

Richard B here.

I went and checked. According to
https://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/greek/greek_oath.html
the Hippocratic Oath "does not explicitly contain the phrase, 'First, do no harm,' which is commonly attributed to it."

And — this is me speaking — besides having no legal force whatever, it's very much of its time and place. Come on, do physicians really need to be reminded not to have sex with slaves?

That aside, I'm totally with you about that doofus Dr. Tiebout, who evidently couldn't do a thing about Bill Wilson's protracted deviation from the new freedom and new happiness that the Big Book — that is, Bill Wilson — had promised everybody a few years earlier.

Well, no wonder. The basic idea behind psychoanalysis, according to Gilles Deleuze, was: Whatever you say, it means something else. Until the 1970s, this was the dominant ideology in the psychiatric profession. And it was no more evidence-based than the moralistic frothings of Frank Buchman.

Twelve Step voodoo. Freudian voodoo. Character defects. Self-absorption. Guilt. The rehab racket. A shady book-publishing venture.

How have we all survived?

(Takes deep breath.)

First of all, don't drink.

And make sure that the help you ask for really IS help.

rb

Hello Richard,

Thanks for the letter and the correction about the Hippocratic Oath. I guess that one falls into the category of "Urban Legend".

Yes, isn't it odd how Dr. Tiebout suddenly discarded all of his education in psychiatry and just whole-heartedly promoted Frank Buchman's fascist philosophy as the cure for alcohol abuse? Strange, very strange.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Yes, Higher Power Dracula, I surrender myself to you, to do with me
**     what Thou wilt, and I promise to go bite at least three newcomers
**     and turn them into our unholy kind."





[The previous letter from Douglas_G is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Douglas_G2 ]

Date: Mon, August 5, 2013 4:05 pm       (answered 6 August 2013)
From: "Douglas G."
Subject: RE: AA

Mr. Orange,

I wish you peace and harmony. I may be sick and delusional, but I am happy. And I thank God for Alcoholics Anonymous!

Please do not respond as I will simply delete anymore posts from you. I find your attitude toxic and sad! You cease to entertain me!

Sincerely,
Doug G.

"People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care"

Hello again Douglas,

I never called you sick and delusion. I called the A.A. teachings sick and delusional. There is a difference there.

Being "happy" attending the meetings of a cult religion is no great accomplishment. Remember what William James said:

'If merely "feeling good" could decide, drunkenness would be the supremely valid human experience.'

== William James (1843—1916), U.S. psychologist, philosopher, in "The Varieties Of Religious Experience", lecture 1, "Religion and Neurology" (1902)

Claiming that you will delete any messages to you is a classic Scientology-style "disconnect". When criticism cannot be silenced, avoid learning undesired facts by ceasing all communications. Walk or run away to avoid any further contact. It is described in the file on Propaganda and Debating Techniques as "blanking".

You say that I cease to entertain you? This debate is not for your amusement. It's about what will help some people who are very sick.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so."
**        ==  Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)


Date: Wed, August 7, 2013 8:39 am
From: "Douglas G."
Subject: RE: AA

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[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Nanette_D ]

Date: 2013.08.05: 5:13 AM       (answered 6 August 2013)
From: Nanette D.

I guess u have some good sobriety??? I have never had any of those experiences or teachings in AA. I thank the Universe all of the things I have found in AA nothing is perfect. Bill Wilson said to embrace anyone and anything that was trying to help alcoholics . Pretty open minded!!! Blessings to you and with love and service, Nanette 22 years sober. I give AA a 0 it is great!!!

Sent from my iPhone

Hello Nanette,

Thanks for the letter. (But please don't send letters to Google Gmail. I only use that address as a spam bucket. It was only by chance that I saw your letter as I was cleaning out the garbage.)

Yes, I have some sobriety: 12, almost 13 years now. And I got those years without any "support group" or "program".

The fact that you have not had any unpleasant experiences in A.A. doesn't mean that other people have not suffered. As Carl Sagan said, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." See the list of A.A. horror stories.

Bill Wilson was not open-minded at all. He merely pretended to be open-minded. First, he said that A.A. members should be open-minded, and then he said that A.A. was the only way. Also, Bill's appeals to "open-mindedness" were really just appeals for you to be gullible and desperate enough to accept the ravings of a cult religion nutcase as truth:

Why all this insistence that every A.A. member must hit bottom first? The answer is that few people will sincerely try to practice the A.A. program unless they have hit bottom. For practicing A.A.'s remaining eleven Steps means the adoption of attitudes and actions that almost no alcoholic who is still drinking can dream of taking. Who wishes to be rigorously honest and tolerant?   ...
Under the lash of alcoholism, we are driven to A.A. ...
Then, and only then, do we become as open-minded to conviction and as willing to listen as the dying can be.

== Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 24.

Bill says that you need the whip of alcoholism beating you into accepting his religion. That is not open-mindedness.

I just discussed this same issue a few letters back, so I won't just repeat it all again. You can see it here:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters361.html#only_way

Also see these bait-and-switch tricks for much more along these lines:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A.A. quackery, straight from the horse's mouth:
**     "I have no doubt that a man who has cured himself of the lust for alcohol
**     has a far greater power for curing alcoholism than has a doctor."
**       ==  William G. Wilson, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, page 320.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#RS ]

Date: Aug 1, 2013       (answered 6 August 2013)
From: RS

Hello Orange.

Thank you for all your work, as you have been a great help for my deprogramming. For the most part I agree with your rational, and your use of pure logic to denounce AA. Once in a Odd Blue moon though I read some of your reply to letters and sort of question the logic that you use on a few minor points.

Letter 361 in reply to Douglas's, you were very spot on in all except in one of your rebuttals in my opinion.

This is another lame rationalization:

"It is like saying the Catholic Church is no good because some of its priests rape children."

Well yeh. Hello? Is anybody in there? Do you really think that the Catholic Church is good for the children who are getting raped? Is the Church a good organization for them? Do they get good spiritual teachings from the Church? Duh...

And when an organization like the Catholic Church not only permits but covers up and perpetuates the rape of children for centuries, it is an evil organization. Period.

And when A.A. promotes an old cult religion as the only cure for alcohol abuse, it is also an evil organization

Of course you have every right to your opinion that the Catholic Church is an evil Organization, and the way that many in the clergy either covered up, or actively engaged in the scandal is certainly pure evil. What I disagree with is your assertion that the Catholics are evil because of the priest scandal.

According to the John Jay College of Criminal Justice Report of 2004 " The Report determined that, during the period from 1950 to 2002, a total of 10,667 individuals had made allegations of child sexual abuse. Of these, the dioceses had been able to substantiate 6,700 accusations against 4,392 priests in the USA, about 4% of all 109,694 priests who served during the time covered by the study.[2] Roughly 4% of the priests were accused, therefore. However, of these 4392 accused, only 252 were convicted. The number of alleged abuses increased in the 1960s, peaked in the 1970s, declined in the 1980s, and by the 1990s had returned to the levels of the 1950s.[3] "

Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay_Report

Please review the stats, and let me know if you think there is anything wrong with the Data. If the above is reliable, the Report indicates that 96% of the Clergy has never been accused, and only a fraction of less then 1% have ever been convicted in a court of law. Of course only 1 incident and 1 cover up is 1 too many, it would be wrong to call the entire Clergy evil because of the actions of a few. Out of the 252 Priest that have been convicted in an over 50 year time period would on

Those numbers sound believable. I won't argue with them. But do you know what they don't say? How many other priests knew what was going on and remained silent because their bishop told them not to embarrass the Church by reporting the crimes that they knew about? What percentage of the bishops and cardinals knew what was going on and chose to remain silent and cover it up and lie to the victims and their families and say that the matter would be taken care of?

Now, for sake of comparison I will introduce an article from the Los Angeles Unified School District that states that in the Last 15 months 600 teachers were accused of sexual misconduct.
http://www.themediareport.com/2013/05/15/lausd-abuse-la-daily-news-barbara-jones/

The difference with the school district is that the leaders of the school district did not cover up the crimes to protect the criminals and avoid a scandal. The leaders of the school district did not permit the pedophiles to continue raping the childen year after year after year, for centuries.

If you are going to use the same Logic that Catholics, or the Catholic Church is Evil because of the priest scandal, then it would seem that you would have to apply that same standard to Teachers, schools and school districts. Somehow I don't think that you would call all teachers evil, or public education and the educational system in general evil. I would think that you would agree that education is valuable, and that although the school district should be held accountable to any cover-ups past or present, most teachers are not sex abusers and overall are contributing something good to the world.

The same argument can be made about Americans in general. We Americans can view ourselves as ex Indian Killers and Slave holders, or we can view ourselves as champions of democracy and innovators of Science, law and progress. There also has been a lot of sexual abuse of children by athletic coaches. One can not say that Junior league sports are evil because some coaches were derelict in their duty. I've read a statistic that most sexual abuse of minors is done by an immediate family member. Are we to say that the institution of family is evil? How about all the incidents of Rape, Murder, Corruption, crime and police brutality committed by Police officers. Would you make the same ex-cathedra statement regarding the Police being as evil as the Catholic Church? How about the Army? Our out service men killed, raped, plundered and looted innocent civilians in far away lands, and there have been official cover ups? Would you make the same statement about the Army being Evil Period. How about environmentalist, and the guy who started Earth Day who killed his ex girlfriend, and stuffed her in a trunk. Is environmentalism and Earth day evil because of his actions.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/42711922/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/earth-day-co-founder-killed-composted-girlfriend/

Again, I can go on and on, but the point is that evil exist in every organization, but it would not be fair to condemn an entire organization as evil without due process, and only on the actions of a few.

Again, there is the question of whether the leaders of those organizations condoned those crimes and permitted them to continue for centuries. And speaking of police, I can remember many descriptions of police departments as totally corrupt, especially Chicago and New York during prohibition.

You see, it isn't just a matter of a few percent of the people doing something wrong. It's whether the leaders know it and allow it to continue, and cover it up and protect the criminals and let them do it some more. And then betray the victims and accuse them of lying and making it up...

And that's why Penn State football got crucified, too. The coach knew, and the higher-ups knew, and none of them did anything to protect the children. They valued the reputation of their football game more than the lives of the children. That is evil.

Now getting back to AA, before my tangent gets bigger. LOL!!!. AA is dishonest, delusional, deceitful organization started by narcissistic control freak, and it's literature is based on the diary of a madman. No sure if Bill Wilson started out evil at first, or just crazy off the belladonna, but certainly there is something fundamentally flawed by telling people that they are powerless when they are not, and in my opinion the most evil thing about AA is it's nonsense philosophy. You have done a great job for the most part at pointing out the evil and the insanity that is AA. What I think is not healthy is to condemn everyone who is in AA as being evil, as after all they are just people who were conned into the program as I was for many years myself. Unfortunately I do not have any statistical info as you are well aware of AA as bad with that, but in my opinion most of the people were suffering from low self esteem, and the craziness of being in that cult in general and were just lonely miserable souls who were afraid to take responsibility for their own actions. They go to hide from their mythical disease. Does this make them delusional yes, crazy yes, but evil not necessarily so. I have met a lot of people in AA who are otherwise good people. I think that it is important to condemn the Program but I do so primarily because I see how it destroys otherwise good people.

I never condemned all people in A.A. as being evil. Never. In fact, I have the the Newcomer Rescue League, which is a bunch of good people who go to A.A. meetings to save the newcomers from the bad sponsors.

And of course I clearly recognize that most of the people in A.A. have been hoodwinked and fooled when they were freshly-detoxed and cloudy-headed and confused. They are victims. And they generally wise up and leave A.A. after a few years, when their heads clear.

Anyway, that is more then my 2 cents. Hope you are having a good day.

"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

RS

Okay, RS, you have a good day now.

(Oh, and please don't email to the Gmail address. I only use that address as a spam bucket. It's only by luck that I saw your letter. I rarely check Gmail. I don't use it because Google has no respect for privacy, and reads all emails, and then sends you advertisements tailored to what is in your email. I wonder what kind of advertisements you can get for talking about pedophilia.)

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Even if you are a religious organization, secular laws still apply
**     to you.  If, for instance, you believe in doing human sacrifices
**     for the Summer Solstice, you are not allowed to do that.
**       ==  Lisa Mackilroy, Think Out Loud, NPR, 9:24 AM, 30 September 2011.





June 02, 2013, Saturday, Waterfront Park in downtown Portland:

Canada Goose goslings
Mother and Goslings

Canada Goose goslings
Mother and Goslings

Canada Goose goslings
Two Goslings, eating bread. The one on the left is a boy, and the one on the right is a girl. You can tell by the difference in size.

Canada Goose goslings
Two Goslings, eating bread. The little girl on the right is asking for some more bread after her big brother grabbed the bread away from her. So of course I gave her some more.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html#Michael_Y ]

Date: Jul 27, 2013       (answered 6 August 2013)
From: Michael Y.

I have just started reading your web page, after feeling the need to do some research. I am a 41-year-old engineer, and I have been drinking heavily for the past 20 years (8+ beers/night). I decided last January that it was time to quit. On my own. I have not had a single drop of alcohol for nearly seven months. My wife, for some reason, has had a hard time with my quitting, and started going to al anon meetings. I have noticed her personality changing from the normal bubbly self to a shell with no emotions. I am not a horrible monster, and never was even when drinking every night. So, now I feel that this "cult" has gotten into her head and is forcing this change I have noticed.

This scares the hell out of me — to me, it's a simple as "I drank too much, and it's time to stop. For my wife. For my two children. For me." Take control, make change. End of story.

Al anon apparently is similar to AA, and after doing some research, realized the buzz words from out emotionless exchange consist of "boundaries", "spirituality" and trying to "forgive" me for my horrible actions in the past (there really are none, just a bunch of drinking — no deaths, no accidents, no abuse), to name a few. She has been to maybe 6 meetings. Initially, I just figured I'd let her do her own thing. Then the "cult" word came up when I was talking to a co-worker. I did a bit of internet research and — holy shit...I am really disturbed about this. I can see that she is "detaching" herself from this raging alcoholic (me) that doesn't drink any more. Truth is, I feel that she is applying a "one size fits all" philosophy to this, relating to the least common denominator in the group, who probably does have an extremely messed-up life.

So, she has flat out said that she wants me to go to AA. There is NO WAY IN HELL! I mean, I quit drinking. What's the point? I am responsible and in control of my actions. No one else. No fairies, no imaginary friends. I do not believe in a "higher power" (AKA Christian God).

I have asked her to quit going to these Al Anon meetings, with the promise that I will attend an alternative treatment with her. Specifically, marriage counseling. I truly want her to quit going to this sick shit.

Anyhow, she has "agreed" to stop going, but she is really pissed off at me for it. However, I can't help but feel that she is somehow going to secretly stay involved. My family is the most important thing to me, and it always has been. If she keeps going to these whacked-out meetings, I don't see how we can stay together — how are we supposed to work things out if she "detaches" herself from me? She was pissed that I called Al Anon a cult, and insists that it's not.

I am writing to you out of desperation — how do I convince my wife, without insulting her or sounding like I am making demands, to quit going to these Al Anon meetings and have her be OK with it? How do I ensure that she remains a normal human being that can recognize problems in her life, and talk to me (or other real friends) to make changes for the better?

If you have any personal advice, I am all ears. If you have any specific helpful web sites for spouses with Al Anon affected loved ones, please let me know.

Yes, quitting was hard, and I have not been the most pleasant person to be around (this finally came out in our conversations), but I am in no way verbally or physically abusive to my wife or kids. Grumpy, yes. A homebody, yes (which I am suspecting is one of the appeals of Al Anon — my wife needs social interaction).

Thanks for reading!!!

Mike

Hello Mike,

Thank you for the letter. Yes, you have a problem.

First off, I feel like you are really lucky that you were able to nip the problem in the bud. It is amazing how they are sucking her in so fast. She may grumble about giving up Al-Anon, but at least she will consider it, and apparently, maybe, really do it. So you have a fighting chance.

If she were to stay in the cult, then soon, she would be willing to dump you in order to stay with Al-Anon. So many of the letters that I receive say that the spouse divorced the significant other when it came to a choice of the 12-Step cult or the spouse.

My first reaction is, "What does she want that she seems to be getting from Al-Anon?"

She is new to Al-Anon, so she is still in the "love-bombing" phase, where they make a big fuss over her, and tell her that she is the most important person in the meeting. (In both A.A. and Al-Anon, the slogan is that the newcomer is the most important person.) And they tell her that she has come home, that she is finally right where she belongs, and only the other Al-Anon members really understand what she has been going through (and then they tell her what she has been going through, like that you are a monster who has been making her life a living hell). And they tell her that they are going to give her unconditional love.

Oh yes, it's a cult for sure.

So what does she really want?

  • Feelings of being special?
  • A feeling of belonging?
  • A ticket to Heaven?
  • A circle of friends?
  • Fake love?
  • The feeling that somebody understands?
  • The feeling that she is getting right with God?
  • The belief that she is getting spiritual?
  • The security of unquestionable dogma?
  • The fantasy of being a moral Titan, heroically saving the world?

If you can figure out the answer to that question, then you will know why she has become so quickly attached to Al-Anon. And that may give you some ideas about what to do in response.

Here is another letter where we discussed the same question:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters69.html#Abdul

You can get some more information about Al-Anon from the web page Twelve-Step Snake Oil.

Also see the vicious Al-Anon put-downs of the wives in the file The "Us Stupid Drunks" Conspiracy.

Now, what to do? The books of Steve Hassan come to mind. I mentioned one in that previous letter, Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves.

There is also Combatting Cult Mind Control. Both are good. Both will give you a bunch of ideas about how to deal with a cult, and how to get a loved one out of a cult.

Steve has also assembled that material into an e-Book. I don't know if it is released yet. I've been reading a preliminary copy that he sent me, and it's good. So you might find that. If not, those two books will tell you a lot. They cover the same material.

Steve Hassan was a member of the Moonies for several years, and was personally abused by the monster Rev. Sun Myung Moon, so Steve has a lot of experience with cult tactics and mind games and brainwashing techniques. And now Steve has a masters degree in social work, so he has some formal education to support his ideas and statements.

Here are some more letters where we discussed Hassan's books and other techniques for getting someone out of a cult:

  1. Don't give up

  2. Use indirect criticism of the cult

  3. "I made the mistake of being critical and ever since she rarely talks to me about the group and if the subject comes up she gets really weird..."

  4. ...phobia indoctrination that Steve Hassan mentions in his book "Releasing the Bonds." Do you think this technique can really cause phobia/panic attacks?

  5. My main concern is my girlfriend of two years who waxing and wanning out of the cult (she is addicted to the cult).

  6. Wife Doing 13th Step; Was Absorbed by AA — Is there any hope of her waking up and realizing that AA has "gone too far" in controlling her thinking and life?

  7. help for anyone in a.a. looking to get out

  8. why is it that although different in points of view, every cult has the same agenda and the same M.O.?.

  9. do you have any advice for someone who desires to protect their loved ones from the influence/adverse effects of AA?

  10. I saw a freeminds video on the Watchtower & mind control. I am leaving the JW and wanted to know where I could find literature on this subject?

  11. I have no idea on how to approach her, I tried to talk about this a few times, the conversations did not go well. She's like a different person and I want her back.

  12. We need help and advice on breaking up part of our family that has a cult mentality.

  13. I'm convinced that a cousin's 22 year old daughter has gotten herself mixed up in a cult.

  14. I speak French and there's nothing comparable in French.

  15. ...service work. Steve Hassan did a brilliant job of describing just how important that is in his book, "Combatting Cult Mind Control."

Good luck, and please do not hesitate to write back if you have more questions or need more help.

(Oh, and please don't use the Gmail address. I only use Gmail as a spam bucket. I found your letter just by accident, when I was cleaning the garbage out of the Gmail mailbox. Please use the Orange-Papers email address in the signature below. I don't use Gmail because Google has no respect for our privacy. They read all of our email to figure out what targeted ads to send us next.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "Although easily mistaken for candy, holly is quite poisonous."
**  "Although easily mistaken for real moral religions, cults are quite poisonous."


Date: Thu, August 8, 2013 8:45 am       (answered 12 August 2013)
From: "Michael Y."
Subject: RE: help request

Thanks, Man...but it looks like it's too late. Though I don't know if the divorce is a result of Al-Anon. I have to wonder, though.

Bummer. I'm sorry to hear about that. Well, take care of yourself now. And have a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Look! Good fortune is around you.
**    It is better to be alone than in bad company.





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Last updated 15 August 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters362.html