Letters, We Get Mail, CCCLIII

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Paul_C ]

Date: Fri, May 3, 2013 8:46 am       (answered 4 May 2013)
From: "Paul C."
Subject: [Orange Papers] Just found this from 1998 in a UK paper.

Paul C. posted in Orange Papers

Just found this from 1998 in a UK paper.

"according to research by Dr Bryan Hore at the University Hospital of South Manchester, 12 Step has a success rate of as high as 70 per cent"

I can't seem to find any references to this research, anyone know anything about it?

Cult or cure: the AA backlash

Alcoholics Anonymous is under attack. Those who have been through its mill claim it is 'authoritarian' and 'fascistic', employs brainwashing techniques and is cult-like in its attitude to members. Ursula Kenny talks to the disaffected who have rejected its road to recovery

Reply to this email to comment on this post.


Hello again, Paul,

Thanks for the reference. That is an interesting find.

About this quote:

"according to research by Dr Bryan Hore at the University Hospital of South Manchester, 12 Step has a success rate of as high as 70 per cent"

Wow. I really would like to see his "research". The only reliable, accurate way to establish the A.A. success rate — or the success rate of any medical treatment or medicine — is with a randomized longitudinal controlled study, and I never heard of Dr. Hore doing one. So what was Dr. Hore "researching"?

In general, I find that extreme numbers like that are simply made up. Like how Bill Wilson lied in the second edition of the Big Book and wrote,

Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses, and among the remainder, those who stayed on with A.A. showed improvement.
Bill Wilson, Foreword to the Second Edition of the Big Book, 1955, page XX.

Well, 50 plus 25 is 75, which is close to Dr. Hore's statement.

Bill Wilson was, of course, lying like a rug, just making up numbers. And he was lying with qualifiers. Bill only counted those people whom he considered to have "really tried". (There is more about that quote here.)

The next question is motive: Why would Dr. Hore make such groundless statements? Is he a member of A.A., or a salesman of 12-Step rehab?

Oh, and did you notice that Dr. Hore was also lying with qualifiers? He said that the A.A. success rate was "as high as 70 per cent". As high as? Which means that it could be anything between zero and 70 percent.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "You have no conception these days of how much failure we had.  You had
**     to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait."
**     Bill Wilson describing early recruiting efforts for Alcoholics Anonymous,
**     at the memorial service for Dr. Bob, Nov. 15, 1952; file available here.

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Gene_Z ]

Date: Sat, May 4, 2013 1:41 pm       (answered 4 May 2013)
From: "Gene Z."
Subject: Bill W. U.S. Army

No I am not a spammer. I been catching hell from AAers for years now. Every dirty trick in the book. I am a U.S. Navy disabled veteran and Bill W.'s story doesn't ring true. I was eligible for officers candidate school. Bill flunked out of college yet is portrayed as an officer. Not likely. There is no mention of his position or duty assignment. Something definitely wrong here.

Hello Gene,

Thanks for some healthy skepticism. In this case though, I think that the basic facts about Bill's military experience may be true.

Bill Wilson did not exactly flunk out of Norwich University. He was going to flunk out, so he went and enlisted in the Army instead. That was at the end of World War 1, and all of the nations involved were scraping the bottom of the barrel for more troops. Most of the good officers and troops had already been wasted. Germany was reduced to sending teenage boys into combat. France was recruiting more troops for cannon fodder in her African colonies, offering French citizenship to any black native who would enlist in the army.

Norwich University ad
Because Bill Wilson was coming from a military school, and he had ROTC training, he was a good candidate for a quick basic training program and then he was a newly-minted second lieutenant. Bill's whole career was: He boarded a troop ship and got sent to England. He was delayed there for a few months because of an outbreak of the Spanish Flu, which was a real killer. Then, when Bill's unit was sent to France, his platoon was given a small French village up in the mountains to guard. Luckily for Bill, it was far away from the front lines. Two weeks later the war ended. Bill Wilson never saw combat, and never ducked a single bullet, or fired a shot at the enemy. His unit hung around that French village for about two more months after the Armistice, and then they were sent home and discharged. And that was Bill's whole military career.

Now here is the punch line to the joke: The highlight of Bill's military career was when he pulled his pistol out of his holster and pointed it at his own men and demanded that they obey his orders. No kidding. That was it. What happened was: when they were on the troop ship, sailing from the USA to Great Britain, there was a huge bang one night, and everybody feared that they had just been torpedoed. Troops began to race for the deck. Bill pulled out his pistol and pointed it at them and demanded that they stay in their bunks. Eventually, when the ship didn't fill with water and sink, they found that they had not been torpedoed after all. It was just the US Navy tossing a depth charge at what they thought might be a German submarine. The depth charge exploded very close to Bill's ship. That was the big bang.

Bill declared that he had maintained his calm disposition when his troops were panicking, so that showed that "he wasn't yellow after all."

There are more descriptions of Bill's experience here:

My personal take on it is that Wilson was pretty stupid. Yes, he maintained order, but if the ship had really been torpedoed, then they would need to get thousands of guys up a narrow ladder fast, before the ship sank. Torpedoed ships can go down in like two minutes. Waiting until the water is sloshing around your legs to be sure that the ship is sinking before you start sending the troops up the ladder is suicidally stupid and guarantees that thousands will remain trapped below decks when the ship goes down.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When Hiram Maxim, the inventor of the machine gun, was asked in 1893,
**     "Will this gun not make war more terrible?",
**     he answered, "No, it will make war impossible."

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Susan_B ]

Date: Sun, May 5, 2013 1:06 pm       (answered 11 May 2013)
From: "susan b."
Subject: What works?

Hello! I'm about halfway your article about the in effectiveness of traditional treatment programs. It's nice to see some actual studies and statistics. Not something you find without digging. Do you have a similar article about what does work to help a loved one quit drinking?

Sent from my iPhone

Hello Susan,

Thanks for the compliments. About what works: Unfortunately, properly-done randomized longitudinal controlled studies are about as rare as hens' teeth, perhaps because the 12-Step treatment industry has strongly opposed having any valid testing done (which would reveal that they are just selling quackery). About the closest that we can get is Dr. Jeffrey Brandsma's randomized longitudinal controlled study that found that A.A. made alcoholics binge drink more than the control group, while Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) made them binge drink less than the control group.

It would be nice if the U.S. Government or Dept. of Health, Education and Welfare would do some good studies, but they have shown no interest in doing proper studies. The closest we have ever come is Project MATCH, which was worthless because it had no control group, and it just compared bastardized versions of A.A., CBT and "motivational therapy".

In the mean time, I have my own lists of what works, including my own experiences and letters from others. They are all linked from here: How did you get to where you are?

And of course, when you read the file on The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment, you saw the information about the NIAAA finding that "About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA."

So what often works better than anything else is true self-help: just do it yourself.

Now, about how to help a loved one, I would stress, "Don't be condescending, and don't be judgemental." That just drives people away from help. (That is one of the big mistakes that A.A. makes. Oh sure, they say that they don't judge, but they do, constantly. Look here and here and here.)

Remember that there is an underlying reason why someone drinks too much alcohol. It might be haunting memories of childhood abuse, or damage to the Cerbellar Vermis, or it might be the pain of ill health (including smoking cigarettes), or a defective gene that keeps people from feeling pleasure, or chronic depression, or a bipolar disorder, but it's something. Finding and dealing with the underlying problem can help a lot.

So check out that list above for some ideas.

Have a good day now, and good luck, and thanks for caring.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A.A. is not a "self-help group", it's an
**     "elf-help group". You are supposed to pray
**     and beg for an invisible "Higher Power",
**     like a leprechaun, or Cinderella's Fairy
**     Godmother, to solve all of your problems
**     for you and grant all of your wishes.

May 8, 2013, Wednesday: Waterfront Park in Downtown Portland

I got into Portland this day to see an old friend, and also had to stop off at the park and feed my other old friends, of course.

Canada Goose goslings
Geese at Waterfront Park in downtown Portland, eating rolled oats.

Canada Goose goslings
A mother with a family of 12, eating cooked rice.
I think that the two largest goslings in the foreground belong to another couple of parents, who are just off-screen. I think that this is one of those cases where two pairs of parents pool their children together and raise them jointly. Still, 10 babies from this mother is a lot of work.

Canada Goose goslings
Mother and goslings, eating rice, rolled oats, and oatmeal.
The oatmeal is for the babies. Something like Quaker Oats or "quick oats" is easier on the mouths of the babies. The rolled oats don't have all of the husks removed, but the oatmeal does. And the rice is cooked, so that it is soft for their little mouths.

Canada Goose goslings
Mother and babies at the Willamette River.

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[The previous letter from Louis_M is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Louis_M ]

Date: Sun, May 5, 2013 9:29 am       (answered 13 May 2013)
From: "Louis M."
Subject: Re: Hay

Hello Laura

First off I am sorry for calling you to crazy. I also thought you gave my email to orange, I did not know you are orange. Seems you are a celebrity. I do not want to fight with you are anyone. I hoped only for an open exchange of ideas in a thoughtful and respectful manor. It seems to me you have your six shooters out and are firing at all times. You seem to be on a crusade to have your position excepted at any cost. And isn't there anything else you chat about. The endless bantering gets tired fast, I'm right your wrong, no your wrong I'm right, Damm. What makes you so sure of anything? And maybe that is the rub to me. Who knows,, Perhaps the Hindus are right, and we are a dream coming out of Vishnu's belle button. At the end of the day we all get to have an opinion.

I want you to know I do not cut or paste anything nor do I forward anything. I take the time to express ideas one letter at a time. I think you are worth it or I would not be typing right now. I would like to think I am worth it as well. Now of opinion. Which is what we have been speaking of;

"You will do me the justice to remember that I have always supported the right of every man to his (or her) opinion, however different that opinion might be to mine. He who denies another this right makes a slave of himself to present opinion because he precludes his self the right of changing it. The most formidable weapon against error of any kind is reason. I have never used another and I trust I never will".
== Thomas Pain.

Ubi Dubium Ibi libertas- sapere aude. I trust you know some Latin. It is ok to have doubt in fact it is a categorical imperative. We dare to learn or become like the fat man who refuses to look into a mirror least he know the truth. Budda had a teaching that goes like this, "I looked into the pond and saw myself, there I was but that is not me". Seems pretty shallow but it will take you deep if you meditate on it for a few years. So my point is even when we are willing to look at ourselves, can we be sure of what we see? Do we really understand the such ness of things? So I pose to you the question, what if you learned your opinion was not fact. Hypothetical speaking of course, non monotonic logic teaches us that since a=b yesterday it doesn't follow that it will tomorrow. We once thought the earth was the center of the universe the copernican revolution changed our minds.

What if we are all bound over to, for and against each other. Did you read Buber? I hope you have and it is best read very slowly and as often as possible. I try to achieve the I Thou relationship Buber writes about, the world would be a much better place if more people read him. At the very least I continue to see things differently. Also i love Latin as you may have noticed. When ever I think I may have had an original thought, I find the Greeks have a word for it. Obscuris Vera involvens. ---Sta4nce---Just a fun rebus for you. Do you get it?

Hope you enjoy this 5th of May, as for us we are heading to Hyde park to enjoy this beautiful day.

Louis M

Sent from my iPad

Hello again, Louis,

Thanks for the reply (which is apparently to me, in spite of being addressed to Laura).

Well, you complained,

It seems to me you have your six shooters out and are firing at all times. You seem to be on a crusade to have your position excepted at any cost. And isn't there anything else you chat about.

I don't "have my six-shooters out and firing at all times." I do, however, strongly object when people say things that just are not true, especially when people's health and lives are on the line. And it is A.A. that is on a crusade to have their position accepted at all costs. They use everything from rehab centers to courtrooms to force their religion on unwilling victims. They even kill people by telling them not to take their medications and just trust the 12 Steps to heal them. That is a very high cost to continue fanatical belief in a cult religion. And unfortunately, the cost is paid by other people — people who innocently believed that they were joining a "self-help" organization.

As far as, "And isn't there anything else you chat about", that isn't true either. I actually get the occasional complaint about too much wildlife and too many baby geese. And going off topic. Still, the purpose of this web site is to talk about A.A., and addictions and recovery, so of course that's what I talk about the most.

This is anti-rationalism and escape via relativism:

Who knows,, Perhaps the Hindus are right, and we are a dream coming out of Vishnu's belle button. At the end of the day we all get to have an opinion.

It isn't a matter of your opinion versus my opinion. Whether somebody is dead isn't just someone's opinion.

And if this life is just a dream we dreamed one afternoon long ago, why can't we dream that we can drink unlimited quantities of alcohol and stay high as a kite all of the time, and still be happy and healthy and holy? Why does the dream turn into a nightmare when we drink too much alcohol?

Your Latin, "Ubi Dubium Ibi libertas- sapere aude.", says, "Where there is doubt there is freedom-minded endeavor." Of course, it is about doubting the absolute authority and unquestionable "truths" of the Church, and thinking for yourself. I agree. And I also doubt the religious beliefs of Alcoholics Anonymous.

The rest of the philosophical argument really does not have anything to do with the fact that A.A. fails to cure alcoholics and lies about it.

And yes, I also go to the park, very often, and feed the geese and cute little goslings. Look here for some recent photographs of them and their babies.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A.A. slogan: "Untreated alcoholism KILLS, with or without a drink."
**     What nonsense. How can "alcoholism" kill you if you don't drink alcohol?
**     How can you even have "alcoholism" if you don't drink alcohol?

Date: Mon, May 13, 2013 3:47 pm
From: "Louis M."
Subject: Re: Hay

My mistake I thought you were Laura and thanks for your views.


Sent from my iPad

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Mark ]

Date: Sun, May 12, 2013 1:13 am       (answered 14 May 2013)
From: "Mark"
Subject: Hey there

Mr. Orange . .

I'm not spam...just a very grateful former AA attendee.
You sir...are doing GODS work.
Thank you...

Hello Mark,

Thanks for the compliment. I try.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If a man love the labor of any trade, apart from any
**     question of success or fame, the Gods have called him.
**        ==  Robert Louis Stevenson
**     "Success is simple. Do what's right, the right way, at the right time."
**        ==  Arnold H. Glasgow
**     During my eighty-seven years, I have witnessed a whole succession
**     of technological revolutions; but none of them has done away with
**     the need for character in the individual, or the ability to think.
**        ==  Financier Bernard Baruch

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Charlotte_M ]

Date: Wed, May 8, 2013 7:43 pm       (answered 14 May 2013)
From: "Charlotte M."
Subject: This and that

Hi Orange

Thanks for the site. A fantastic resource.

I'm not sure if you are aware and i have not seen it mentioned on your site, there is a site called www.xa-speakers.org which posts many XA speaker tapes including Clancy's.

Also, if you are interested, I have a copy of 'Back to Basics' by Wally P, which I am happy to send you.

Regarding Mickey Bush, his thing is acronyms. He likes to collect acronyms e.g. FEAR = fuck everything and run, ad nauseum and to name drop every celeb he has come across in the fellowship.



On www.xa-speakers.org there are some Mickey Bush tapes too.


Hello Charlotte,

Thanks for the compliments. And yes, I'd be interested in seeing that "Back to Basics". Now I have to learn about all of the sub-cults and junior gurus who have risen up like dragon's teeth to replace Bill W.

About Mickey's acronymns: Yes, they really are into that, aren't they? I have a bunch of them in my list of A.A. slogans. Steppers also love anti-metaboles, which sound like wise, pithy sayings, but that is all really just a bunch of fake corn-pone wisdom, isn't it?

I'll have to go check out www.xa-speakers.org and download some stuff. Thanks.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Go put your creed into your deed,
**     Nor speak with double tongue.
**        ==  Emerson, Ode: Concord

May 8, 2013, Wednesday: Waterfront Park in Downtown Portland

Canada Goose goslings
Goslings eating oatmeal and rice

Canada Goose goslings
Goslings eating oatmeal and rice

Canada Goose goslings
Mama and babies resting
Now that their bellies are full, they are ready to take a nap and digest the food.

Canada Goose goslings
The cluster of goslings cuddling together for a nap.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Norman_H ]

Date: Wed, May 15, 2013 12:45 am       (answered 17 May 2013)
From: "NORMAN H."

The Jewish common folk have no power.
The Jewish power folk have high power.
This distinction is lost on some seeking to express hate.

The debased film industry is driven by Jews = stereotyping of Jews
The Federal Reserve is headed by a Jew = stereotyping of Jews
Rothchild dynasty = stereotyping of Jews

Did Henry Ford every read the Hebrew Bible to see its inspiration?

According to me, Henry Ford's soul has, in Heaven, met those he demonized and love has ensued between them.



Hello Norman,

Thanks for the opinions. Alas, you have a much more generous spirit than I do. I cannot picture Henry Ford in Heaven happily hanging out with the Jews.

And I cannot regard Israel as a light unto the nations, not with the way that they are treating the Palestinian people in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Even blocking medical and food shipments? Heartless. Israeli soldiers shooting people with impunity and breaking childrens' arms with rocks? It reminds me of the Warsaw Ghetto.

If we want a country that is really a light unto the nations, I think we have to pick a small European nation, maybe Denmark or Switzerland, or the Netherlands or Sweden or Norway, people who never started a war and who have maintained a nice stable constitutional democracy for centuries, and who take good care of all of their people, especially the old and the sick and the poor. (Which of course includes universal health care.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The trouble with the age we live in is that it lacks consistence.
**     People start reasoning things out, and as soon as they begin to
**     get anywhere they drop everything and run.
**     ==  Ugo Betti, Struggle 'Till Dawn (1949), 2, tr. G. H. McWilliam

[The next letter from Norman_H is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Jeff_F ]

Date: Sat, May 18, 2013 9:18 am       (answered 20 May 2013)
From: "Jeff F."
Subject: AA

You have done a magnificent job articulating the horse shit that comes from AA. In January-March 2012, I was confined to an AA themed rehab at the behest of the State of NH. I am currently in discussions with an attorney regarding the filing of a lawsuit against the institution (Farnum Center) and the State of New Hampshire. Incredibly, the counselor to whom I was assigned, turns out to have fraudulently misrepresented herself as an LADC both in signed documents and on her office door! Curiously, she is no longer employed by Farnum. I cannot wait to depose that Nazi Nurse Ratched emulating bitch! This is a narrative of my time with these lovely folks. Wonder if you have any thought? Seems to me, that AA keeps the income stream up, in part, through court ordered forced participation. In this case, the state pays for some of the beds at Farnum. Seems an obvious violation of the establishment clause, both in forced participation and partial state funding of the place. I would be keenly interested in any thoughts that you might have.

Thanks, Jeff F.
Loudon, NH

Hello Jeff,

Thank you for the letter. And good luck with your lawsuit. I hope a lot of people sue the 12-Step racket right out of business.

There is no doubt that A.A. is keeping up their membership numbers by coerced recruiting. Even their own literature verifies that. Two of the recent triennial surveys asked questions about how people got "introduced" to A.A., and the possible answers included coercion by courts, prisons, parole officers, doctors and health care workers, employers ("EAP" = "Employee Assistance Program"), and family members blackmailing people. The results were that almost two-thirds of the new A.A. members were forced into A.A. by somebody, somehow.

Alcoholics Anonymous is not a program of attraction; they hypocritically lie. A.A. is a program of steel-fisted coercion.

You can see the details and the evidence here: The centerfold of the November 2002 issue of the AA Grapevine.

A.A. has since stopped asking those questions. They stopped asking questions in the triennial surveys about months of attendance after Charles Bufe pointed out that the triennial surveys revealed a horrendous dropout rate, like 95%. And they stopped asking about coercive recruiting after I printed those results on my web site. (Just a coincidence?)

The new triennial surveys are very sanitized, and reveal very little.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The less reasonable a cult is, the more men seek to establish it by force.
**         —  Jean Jacques Rousseau

[The next letter from Jeff_F, including the attached story, is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Andre_D ]

Date: Sat, May 18, 2013 4:10 am       (answered 20 May 2013)
From: "Andre D."
Subject: AA criticisms

Thank you for your criticisms. I was fine my first couple weeks in AA actually. Then the obsession set in.

I suppose If a man didn't have to drive or operate heavy machinery my life would have been okay. I can thank mothers against drunk drivers for my recovery if it makes you happy. They tried to bust me a couple times after I got sober. I guess it is just the law of averages. You get a couple DUI's on your record and your screwed. I do fairly well going thru road blocks, its just when I bring drunk people home from the bar and they try to give my passenger the keys. Now I say I am the designated driver and I would not recommend that if you like your job.... You heard me the alcohol isn't coming from my breath! When I blow a zero your ass is going to be in a sling. You make about as much sense as the cops that pull me over, just because its two in the morning and they see me pulling out of a bar.

Nonsense. Don't shoot the messenger. If people go to an AA meeting they don't have to go back. I could have quit going years ago. I don't believe the instinct theory. Not sure if there is a God. Don't need politics in my life or the war on drugs. Going to AA; Church dinners and things like that are one of the few things in life that are free. A person can not put a price on Acceptance. There are a lot of jackasses in the rooms. I'm sorry you met them all. The program is anonymous. I don't want to hear what they think about me either. God bless them if they stumble in and say, "IF you had a wife like mine you'd drink too!" I never could keep a wife.

I'm still screwed up. Finished school for nothing. MY life never amounted to anything and I'm useless and can't hold down a job, but you know what guy? I can't afford a drink and I don't worry about where my next one is coming from today. I bookmarked your web sight so I can show it to all my AA friends. I am going to show it to all my friends that still drink too. AA is not a country club. I would get filthy ass drunk if I didn't have to drive myself down there. They should pay you to drink the coffee. You will grow hair on your balls. It makes you go bald and your hair falls out too. Look around the room!

Bill and Bob were crazy. Its like that old Abbott and Costello joke about the two china men... Now look. There are a couple days once in awhile I wish I died instead of quitting with the alcohol. Desire and passion go hand in hand. In AA we don't teach the facts about addiction, give therapy or hand out advise. We just talk a little about what we are doing with ourselves, our hopes and dreams. We go home and put our head on the pillow sober, and get up and ask God for help.... if you have to.

Dude, really. Fuck the mumbo jumbo.

Hello Andre,

Thank you for the letter. I'm glad to hear that you chose to quit drinking. You will be much healthier. Sorry to hear about your employment difficulties.

Alas, I see that you are minimizing the bad side of Alcoholics Anonymous. You think that A.A. is just some people getting together and trading bad drinking stories? There is much more to it than that. A.A. is a coercive cult religion. The previous letter is from a guy who was forced by a court into a 12-Step rehab facility where his counselor was a fake without a degree or credentials. There is a lot of that going on. My own "counselor" at "treatment" was a coke-snorting child-raping Internet child pornographer.

And those 12 Steps that are recited out loud at the start of each meeting are actually the practices of a nasty old pro-Nazi cult religion from the nineteen-thirties, not a "spiritual program".

Above all, we have to ask what are the actual results of participation in the A.A. program? If it were just people trading crazy drunkalogues then it shouldn't be very harmful, should it? But I have a lot of A.A. horror stories of suffering and death caused by crazy dogmatic sponsors who tell people not to take their medications and just trust the 12 Steps to heal them. And sponsors who tell people not to go to a doctor or psychiatrist. And sexual exploitation of newcomers by the old-timers. And the results are increased binge drinking and increased suicides and an increased death rate.

Look here for some of the evidence:

  1. A.A. Horror Stories.
  2. A.A. Suicides
  3. The issue of telling sick people not to take their medications.
  4. The constant put-downs, "You are always wrong."
  5. Dr. Brandsma found that A.A increased binge drinking.
  6. Dr. Ditman found that A.A increased the rate of rearrests.
  7. Dr. Walsh found that A.A increased the cost of hospitalization.
  8. Dr. Vaillant, who went on to become an A.A. trustee, found that A.A. raised the death rate in alcoholics.
  9. Stories of sexual exploition in the Midtown Group of Alcoholics Anonymous
  10. Stories about sexual exploition in Clancy Imusland's Pacific Group. And the Atlantic Group, Foxhall Group, Badger Group, and Nursery...

We have talked about this before. You can also see another list of the harms done by Alcoholics Anonymous here:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "The test, surely, of a creed is not the ability of those who accept it
**     to announce their faith; its test is its ability to change their behavior
**     in the ordinary round of daily life. Judged by that test, I know no
**     religion that has a moral claim upon the allegiance of men."
**       ==  Harold J. Laski, in I Believe (1939), ed. Clifton Fadiman

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#John_V ]

Date: Fri, May 17, 2013 4:36 pm       (answered 20 May 2013)
From: "John V."
Subject: Thank you.

Hello there!

Thank you so very much for all of your writings about what is wrong with A.A. I discovered your site a couple of days ago while looking for info regarding cults. I gave A.A. the old college try, truthfully, and as openly as possible. The total meetings I attended through the years must number in the hundreds.

I never felt right about the program. The god thing in a supposedly non-religious program was the hugest block. The powerlessness thing was a huge problem. Their simplistic bumper-sticker slogans were always irritating. Supposedly long-term sober people in middle-age having to ask their sponsor for permission on every life decision was a problem. The repeated urging for me to deny my feelings of anger was just wrong. I could go on and on.

Your writings have helped validate my experience. More importantly, your words and all of the work you have put into your pieces have helped give me the language with which to express my experience with the cult that is A.A.

A.A. doesn't work! And to think that it has been institutionalized by our legal system and health care industry is simply a travesty.

I will be reading your work as much as possible over the next several days and may perhaps correspond again.

My sincerest gratitude for you, the work you have done with the Orange Papers, and for sharing your story and life with the world. You are doing good work.

Please feel free to publish my name, city, email.

Thanks again!

— John Valdez
Pasadena, CA

Hello John,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments. I'm glad to hear that you kept your sanity, in spite of A.A.

I won't print your email, because you wouldn't believe the amount of spam you will get from Russian spam-bots.

Have a good day now, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When they tell you that you are powerless,
**     that just means that somebody else gets the power.
**       == from an unknown cynic

May 12, 2013, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

A Blackbird eating whole wheat bread
The Blackbird clearly shows what he thinks about "Don't feed the wildlife" signs. But then again, a Blackbird isn't a duck or a goose, is it?

Also notice how the birds shit on the sign.

surveillance camera
The "natural" solar-powered surveillance cameras, watching over the Japanese garden.

Canada Goose family with 3 goslings
A family of 3 goslings, eating whole wheat bread

Canada Goose goslings
A family of 7, maneuvering to get some bread too.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Peter_F ]

Date: Fri, May 17, 2013 5:57 pm       (answered 20 May 2013)
From: "Peter F."
Subject: FW: Drugs A Community Dialogue with Dr. Gabor Maté

From: [nospam] noharm AT canadianharmreduction. [nospam] com
Subject: Drugs A Community Dialogue with Dr. Gabor Maté
To: peter_ferentzy
Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 16:54:41 -0400

Please circulate this announcement to friends and colleagues ...

Everybody uses drugs. Alcohol, antihistamines or heroin ... all of us put substances into our bodies to make us feel better sometimes ...
Drugs: A Community Dialogue
with Dr. Gabor Maté
Join us to discuss with Dr. Gabor Maté topics like stigma, discrimination, and criminalization; the impact of trauma, well-being and self-medication; poverty, gentrification and services; and harm reduction.
Saturday June 8 from 12 sharp to 2 pm
All Saint's Church — Community Centre
315 Dundas St. East (corner of Sherbourne and Dundas)
This is a FREE event.

Food, refreshments, and childcare will be provided.
Space is limited and will be first come first served. Priority will be given to people who are homeless, under-housed or experiencing poverty.
This space is wheelchair accessible.
Dr. Maté is the author of a ground-shifting best-seller about addiction, "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts", and other compelling books about our brains and what drives them. For seven years he served as Medical Co-ordinator of the Palliative Care Unit at Vancouver Hospital. More recently he worked for twelve years in Vancouver's notorious Downtown Eastside neighbourhood with patients suffering from hard-core drug addiction, mental illness and HIV.

Visit http://drgabormate.com/
Sponsored by :
Toronto Harm Reduction Alliance
Toronto Harm Reduction Task Force — http://toharmreduction.org/
Canadian Harm Reduction Network — http://canadianharmreduction.com/

This notice was sent to you by the Canadian Harm Reduction Network. Please visit our Website and support us by becoming a member. Check us out on Facebook ... and on Twitter.

Okay Peter,

Thanks for the tip. I'll publicize it. Alas, I'm far away from Toronto, and won't be attending. But the people here can visit you on the Internet.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The Wizard's First Rule:
**     People will believe a lie because they want it to be true,
**     or because they are afraid it might be true.
**       ==  The Legend of the Seeker
**     The Wizard's Second Rule:
**     The greatest harm can result from the best intentions.
**       ==  The Legend of the Seeker

[The previous letter from Norman_H is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Norman_H2 ]

Date: Sat, May 18, 2013 2:29 pm       (answered 21 May 2013)
From: "NORMAN H."
Subject: Re:

One day you shall learn that the imperfect Israel is not what you have been programed to "know". In Heaven or your next life you shall learn, and you shall be a benefactor of the Jews who are imperfectly protecting themselves against annhilation. We must protect those who are in the highest numbers suffering; those in Syria,. Not one Pal child was ever hurt intentionally, buit hurt by the Pal fighters who se the Pal civilian areas as war launching zones.

I would rather, and do, support an imperfect Israel who make mistakes, than any other people or nation except my birth nation, America. The words in The Holy Torah are pure truth (often in code), and shall and do inspire Earth as waters cover the sea

The Light Unto The Nations is the benefactor to Man, and this is known and shown.

I prefer and you will also appreciate that we both take a breather and learn from the sources which come from intution etc. I shall visit The Holy Land October, God bless us in our learning and doing of good deeds,


Hello again, Norman,

So the "real" Israel is a magic land that we won't know until we get to Heaven? Then by all means, let's send our military aid and foreign aid to that wonderful land in Heaven, and not to the fake copy on Earth.

You claim that "Not one Pal child was ever hurt intentionally". Sorry, but I saw the videos of Israeli soldiers holding down Palestinian children and breaking their arms with rocks. It was on the network evening news. The state of Israel responded by outlawing news photographers taking pictures of the Israeli soldiers doing that.

Lastly, you claim that "I would rather, and do, support an imperfect Israel who make mistakes, than any other people or nation except my birth nation, America." Are you sure that you even support America? Isn't there a line in the Bible about "You cannot serve two masters"? (Ah, but that's in the New Testament, isn't it?)

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  Kill ratio of Palestinian children to Israeli children: 5.7-to-1, Israel's favor.
**  Kill ratio of all Palestinians to Israelis: over 3-to-1.
**       — http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html#Alexis ]

From: "Alexis"
Subject: Who r u
Date: Sun, May 19, 2013 2:26 pm       (answered 21 May 2013)

Who r u and why r u so angry at aa

Sent from my iPhone

Hello Alexis,

Who I am is really impossible to answer. There are hundreds of possible answers to that question, and none of them is complete or the full truth. I mean, possible answers range from "I am stardust, dancing on a mudball," to "I am an immortal awareness," to, "I am the universe."

But for the sake of simplicity, I'll give you the common consensus definition of identity and say that I am currently a 66-year old hairy human, and my birth name was Terrance Hodgins, and I live in rural Oregon west of Portland.

Here are some previous answers to the "who r u" question:

  1. who are you,
  2. who are you, again
  3. Who are you?
  4. How did you get to where you are?

The reason why I am so angry at Alcoholics Anonymous is because A.A. is a criminal organization that foists quack medicine and cult religion on sick people and causes some of them to die, and most of them to suffer more, and lies about all of that. We were just discussing the harm that A.A. does in a previous letter, here:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Man is subject to innumerable pains and sorrows by the very condition
**     of humanity, and yet, as if nature had not sown evils enough in life,
**     we are continually adding grief to grief and aggravating the common
**     calamity by our cruel treatment of one another.
**        ==  Joseph Addison (1672—1719), English essayist, critic, poet

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Last updated 7 June 2013.
The most recent version of this file can be found at https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters353.html