Letters, We Get Mail, CCCXXXII

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters332.html#Greg_L ]

Date: Sun, November 11, 2012 3:49 pm     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "Greg L."
Subject: Wow

Wow folks I just spent the past 2 hrs reading your input about. AA

Not too sure what your trying to do here make people believe that the meetings, the program isn't inspired by God? Or The co founders were screwed up? Or what? Bill was sick we all know that ironically enough if you ever go to meetings you harl ever hear Bills r Dr. Bobs name even mentioned so just a little inside scoop they are not our leaders or God to us old timers or new comers.

My qualification is this, I took my last drink and drug on October 22 1994 and just celebrated 18 yrs of sobriety. I have a sponsor who has a sponsor who's sponsor was Dr. Bob.

I know for a fact I had absolutely no idea where I would be if I wasn't sober and clean but I can bet it wouldn't be in my brand new home that I just built and owner of a roofing company with over 300 employees and 3 locations.

I was living in a 1981 Toyota pickup truck a single father drinking a 12 pack everyday shooting heroin and cocaine every chance I could before I became recovered by this cult as you call it.

I would steal your wallet and help you look for it. I was unsuccessful in the Marine Corpse I quit school in the 9 th grade I am a convicted felon and can add to the list, all this before I was 30 as I got sober at 29. And now look at me now as a result of this so called Cult. Reading your point of view and really feeling sorry for you that you feel you need to try and disclaim AA somehow which I can honestly say you'll never do. Even if AA dies, I along with all the other sober recovering alcoholics will still carry the message to the sick and suffering, isn't that odd? Kinda spiritual If you will. My primary purpose is to stay sober and help others recover from alcoholism

Am I cult member because ethics really works?

You see AA is Alive and well and in just about every county in world despite all of The cofounders issues sickness whoring around lying steeling and whatever that may come to light. And it keeps growing because it works if you work it
I bet you voted for Clinton tho.

Just curios how you know all this information?

AA folk don't force anyone to go to AA and basically if you want to drink that's your business and if you want to stop thats AA business.

Again it's a real shame you spent so much time pointing out the worst in our society and absolutely no time in the benefits people have received and how lives have been restored families — not all- but most, have been reunited as well.

There must be a real deep sadness in your life and a low self worth that you would want to slander something that works so well. It's like you in fact may also be suffering from the grandiose whatever.

I am a proud member of this cult then if it is. Take it for what it's worth no one in AA has ever told me to do anything or asked anything from me.

Oh and maybe this will help you while your driving home thanks to the way Bill Wilson Doctor Bob alky#4 and all the first 100 wrote our literature my sponsor and every AA meeting i have ever been to, you don't have to worry about me driving drunk and killing you or you spouse or someone you love today.

Again it looks like your intention is to kill AA but my friend That will never happen. Thank God for freedom of speech because it allows me to say to you Live and Let Live

This too I learned in AA the past 18 years.

God bless


Sent from my iPad

Hello Greg,

Thanks for the letter. Congratulations on your sobriety. You decided to quit drinking and doping, and you did it. Good. Where would you be if you continued to drink and dope while going to A.A. meetings? How well would "The Program" work then?

Now that tells you what the program really does.

About your other points:

  • A.A. does not "work so well". A.A. is actually a total failure that produces no more sobriety than playing tiddly-winks. Even one of your own Trustees found that to be true. See: A.A. Trustee Dr. and Prof. George E. Vaillant tests A.A.

  • Yes, A.A. is all over the world. So are Scientology and the Moonies. None of them is growing though. A.A. is shrinking. The party for cult religions is over.

  • How I got all this information is research and study. I seek out the old books and I read them. (Check out the bibliography.) I also talk to people, and get letters from them.

  • Congratulations on being a great-great-grand-sponsee of Dr. Bob. That's a great bragging right. I'm sure it does your ego good.

  • You keep yammering about "the benefits people have received and how lives have been restored families". That's the A.A. fairy tale. You should read the list of A.A. horror stories for the other side of the coin.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "A useful idea has turned into a religious movement —
**     and a hindrance to research, psychiatry, and to many
**     alcoholics who need a different kind of help."
**        ==  Dr. Arthur H. Cain, Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?,
**      Harper's Magazine, February 1963.

BLOG NOTE: 20 November 2012:

Last night on TV I saw the leader and CEO of Goldman Sachs mouthing off on the economy. That guy had the gall to declare that the little people need to stop expecting so much from the government, like Medicare and Social Security, because they aren't going to get it.

This is after Larry Summers and Tim Geithner handed the U.S. Treasury to Goldman Sachs in a bailout. Both Summers and Geithner are former Goldman Sachs employees, and they felt that saving Goldman Sachs was the most important thing in the country, far more important than keeping middle-class people from losing their homes.

Much of the bailout money was routed to Goldman Sachs through AIG, the insurance company turned casino. Goldman Sachs had placed so many bets with AIG that if AIG didn't pay off all of the bets 100 cents on the dollar, Goldman Sachs was bankrupt. So Summers and Geithner insisted that AIG had to be propped up with the biggest bailout in the history of the world, so that it could pay its debts to Goldman Sachs.

Then Goldman Sachs executives celebrated by giving themselves multi-million-dollar bonuses.

And now this creep of a Goldman Sachs CEO goes on TV and declares that the little people have to quit expecting hand-outs from the government. Now that takes some nerve.

[The previous letter from Moritz_G is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters332.html#Moritz_G ]

Date: Tue, November 13, 2012 2:38 am     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "Moritz G."
Subject: Re: FW.: The economy is out of balance and has been for some time

Thank you for your reply, I am aware of the fact that I am not the only one writing you.

I am sorry to hear that you are ill, if it is just a cold I am sure you will be fine soon.

I am happy that we agree, it is very hard to find people in the US (and in Germany to a lesser degree as well) that have not been brainwashed into the neoliberal supply side economics invest and export dogma. Not even the simple equivalence of debt=credit saving=borrowing is understood.

Even now that it becomes obvious, that we will not get that money we made by exporting, people just blame the debtors like Greece.

In 2010 I talked to a (self-made) millionaire who made his money in the industrial machine business. He asked me what I was talking about, telling him that the exporting had a flip-side, his money would be right there in the bank account. Yes, it was and still is, thanks to the government guarantees. But really that is just a number, only the first in the bank-run would actually get that amount, after all the money isn't there, that is the whole idea.

I am not a hard core socialist or marxist, I like the German way.

There is a simple two part solution that would not require highly progressive taxation or protectionism.
1. Tax the s*t out of inheritance [(x-$500k)*99%]
2. Include external cost (pollution, use of commons)

That would solve a huge part of our social, economic and ecological problems, without "hurting" those highly motivated by money. The trouble is of cause implementing those two points.


Hello again, Moritz,

Yes, I do believe that we agree on economic matters.

And happily, I think a lot of the American people do too. As the last election showed, only about 50% of the American people are buying into the "trickle-down" economics idea, or the "the neoliberal supply side economics invest and export dogma". Maybe there are really far less than that, because a lot of the people who voted Republican really did it for a variety of other reasons that range from Obama being black to simple hatred of Democrats. Or issues of "God and abortions". The election was not just about economics.

Your two suggestions, taxing inheritances, and including external costs, sound good, but they sure are revolutionary. The second one in particular would devastate some industries. I'm not complaining about that, just saying.

Nuclear power, for instance, would be dead. If the nuclear industry really had to pay all of the costs of storing nuclear waste for the next 100,000 years, they would go bankrupt. And if they had to pay for insurance to cover the damage that they can do (and really do, like Chernobyl and Fukushima), they would go bankrupt. Actually, nobody in the world would insure them, and they can't afford to pay off when they destroy large areas. The local people just get stuck with the losses.

Likewise, the oil industry would be in shock if they had to pay their way, instead of getting tax breaks and special allowances and cheap oil leases on government land. The oil companies would freak out if they had to hire, and pay and equip, their own armies and fight their own wars to steal the oil from foreign countries, rather than having George W. and the U.S. Army go steal it for them (think Iraq).

The oil companies would really be bankrupt if they had to pay for all of the costs of using petroleum — everything from smog damage and pollution to the effects of global warming. They would really scream if the oil and coal industries had to split the cost of Hurricane Sandy.

Still, in the long run, I think your suggestions will come to pass. Corporate welfare will end. The only question is whether the United States of America will die first, getting bled dry from propping up the corporations.

Oh well, have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The press in this country is now and always has been
**     so thoroughly dominated by the wealthy few of the
**     country that it cannot be depended upon to give the
**     great masses of the people that correct information
**     concerning political, economical and social subjects
**     which it is necessary that the mass of people shall
**     have in order that they shall vote and in all ways act
**     in the best way to protect themselves from the brutal
**     force and chicanery of the ruling and employing class.
**       ==  E.W. Scripps (newspaper publisher ca 1900 in
**           memorandum sent to his editorial executives)

[The next letter from Moritz_G is here.]

June 03, 2012, Sunday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
A couple of goslings helping themselves to some bread

June 05, 2012, Tuesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
Another hungry gosling

Canada Goose goslings
A mother and four babies

Canada Goose goslings
A Family of 7, looking at me expectantly, hoping for some munchies

[More gosling photos below, here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters332.html#Toni_L ]

Date: Thu, November 15, 2012 9:40 am     (Answered 20 November 2012)
Subject: AA is a Cult
From: "Toni L"

Really a cult? How funny- thanks for the laugh though.

You did not do your homework on the true history of AA, but you are entitled to your opinion- even though you are way off base. The AA program helps millions of people around the world- MILLIONS and AA was founded of The Oxford group that used the King James Bible for their studies- and the bible was used before the Big Book was written and sayings are from the scripture of the Kings James Bible and can be found there. Had you done any real research you would know that.

You put this on the Internet; so it must be TRUE!!!! OMG- how sad you are-- but facts don't count. I can tell by your ramblings---- Go to Founders Day Akron Ohio the first weekend of June every year and learn the true history and facts of Alcoholics Anonymous----

I'll pray for you as you are more twisted than Bill & Bob ever were drunk ;)
God Bless You

Hello Toni,

Thanks for the letter. Unfortunately, you are wrong about nearly everything. And you are in denial.

  • I most assuredly did do my homework. Read the bibliography. Just read the whole bibliography, from the beginning to the end. You don't have to read all of those books like I did, that would take you many years. Just read the list.

  • A.A. has not saved millions. A.A. does not even have 2 million members in the entire world, and most of them are not sober. Most of them will drop out and return to drinking. A.A. does not sober them up. A.A. has a staggeringly high failure rate. Look here: The Effectiveness of the Twelve-Step Treatment.

  • The Oxford Group used a lot more than just the King James Bible for their theology. They used some very heretical nonsense that Dr. Frank Buchman just made up. See The Heresy of the Twelve Steps.

    You can also read these three religious tracts that were the manuals of the Oxford Group. They contain some very warped theology:

    1. ) Soul Surgery, a manual for the Oxford Group

    2. ) What_Is_The_Oxford_Group, which describes most all of the common practices of the Oxford Group

    3. ) I Was A Pagan, by Vic Kitchen, an Oxford Group confessional. Vic Kitchen acted in Frank Buchman's theatrical productions. Photos here and here.

    And you can also read this contemporary book about the Oxford Group:

    Reinhold Niebuhr, the author of The Serenity Prayer, said of the Oxford Group: "In other words, a Nazi social philosophy has been a covert presumption of the whole Oxford group enterprise from the very beginning."

    And that is not a quote "taken out of context." Click on this link: Buchman and Hitler, and you can read the entire article where Reinhold Niebuhr criticized Frank Buchman for his Nazi philosophy. And remember that Dr. Frank Buchman was the theological father of Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill Wilson just wrote down the practices of Buchmanism to get the 12 Steps and the religious dogma in the Big Book, and Bill Wilson even emphatically said so.

  • The fact that some cultish true believers gather at Dr. Bob's house in Akron on "Founders Day" to ooh and ahh over Dr. Bob's coffee pot is merely evidence that they are nuts. They do not teach "the true history of A.A.". I know what the true history is. Try reading The Religious Roots of A.A. and the Twelve Steps.

  • Yes, A.A. is a cult. Try reading The Cult Test. A.A. passes the test and scores high as a cult.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Wanting to believe is perhaps the most powerful dynamic
**     initiating and sustaining cult-like behavior."
**     The Wrong Way Home: Uncovering the Patterns of Cult Behavior in
**     American Society, Arthur J. Deikman, M.D., page 137. 

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters332.html#Toni_2 ]

Date: Wed, November 21, 2012 8:34 pm     (Answered 3 December 2012)
From: "Toni"
Subject: Re: AA is a Cult

whatever- there is no leader in AA-

Hello again, Toni,

Of course there are leaders, in spite of the slogan about there being no leaders. The first leaders you will notice are the old-timers with the most years of Time, who dominate the meetings with their well-practiced raps. Then the pyramid of leaders goes from the group secretary all the way up through the various area leaders, up to the President and General Manager of A.A. in the Interchurch Center in New York City, Reverend Ward Ewing, Class A Trustee and just retired President, General Theological Seminary, NYC (Episcopal).

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Buy a Hallmark Christmas card and help A.A. to rape underage girls.

[The next letter from Toni_L is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters332.html#Doren ]

Date: Sat, November 17, 2012 11:00 am     (Answered 20 November 2012)
From: "Doren"
Subject: have a letter for your site

Hi Orange,

I wrote years ago and wanted to thank you again for all your hard work.

A little backdrop here. I'm a woman with a history of child abuse and took to drugs and alcohol from 15 til last week, it's been a week now since I stopped. All my life I've thought I was bad and weak and couldn't handle things like others could. The last few months I'm realizing that's not so, and that my root problem is the childhood I never healed from.

Ten years ago I went to rehab and got into step meetings there. When I returned I joined a local group and attended many meetings, did service, etc. I never actually did step work though. I got the NA workbook and did a bit of exercises on my own but that didn't last long. I don't know why I didn't get into the step work, I did believe in them at the time. Something in me bristled at being told what to do. I also started to see things that bothered me. A few of the oldtimer men spoke to me about the affairs they had with younger women members. One told me graphic details about catching another married oldtimer having sex with a young woman.

I was in a bad marriage and I remember my first meeting, a fellow sat besides me and invited me to coffee after. I basically had no social life and it was nice to get out for a little bit. Over the next weeks he started to show he liked me, and I liked him, but we didn't do anything beyond talk. One night he invited me to his home, and I wanted to but had a husband. Eventually things deteriorated and he would deny ever liking me. I really liked this guy and the more I showed that, the worse he treated me. One time I asked about his mother-in-law who was very ill with cancer, I asked how she was, he told me I was a "disgusting human being" for prying. I was shocked and this hurt so much.

My interaction with him led me to detach more and more from the group and AA in general. He said to me, "We've helped you so much, but you're incorrigible". He played a lot of mind games with me. Another thing happened that struck me, an oldtimer woman dying of cancer told me at her last meeting that she was afraid to take her morphine pills in case she got addicted. I started to really get disturbed by the messages of AA.

I stopped going to meetings, though I'm technically still a member of my group. Over the last year I've dropped by my home group 3 or 4 times. Out of loneliness, needing to be around people. More and more I feel snubbed. I hate the limp handshakes, I shake hands firmly, it makes me feel rotten. Or someone asking, "How you doing?" and walking away as I answer.

I don't understand these people. Is it ME??? They talk and they talk about helping and spirituality and they snub at the same time. All they want to do is praise AA.

They look so together and laugh and are social and here I am still struggling, poor and in shabbier clothes, sitting alone. By all appearances I'm the screw-up, yet I still feel angry and sense this hypocrisy from them. It looks one way but inside I'm experiencing something else.

They want me to come back and say, "I'm back, you were right". That's what I think, though that's not said, cause, no one in my home group says anything much to me. If the only requirement is to stop drinking why don't they talk to me the way they did?

Last night on impulse I went again to my home group. I didn't know it, it happened to be the 15th medallian of the guy I liked years ago. I saw him dressed up and said something, but he barely acknowledged me. (Afterwards I thought, this guy abused me and never owned up to it, why am I giving him the time of day? But that's my childhood conditioning, be nice and pleasing, and I'm working on it). A few minutes later, his sponsee gave me a limp handshake. I remember once telling him I didn't need a sponsor, and how shocked he looked.

I sat down and saw an acquaintance. His father beat the shit out of him as a kid and he's been on drugs ever since. He looked bad, scruffy, gaunt, no teeth, nodding off. The man sitting beside him took off after a few minutes, looking uncomfortable. I took the man's seat and sat next to my acquaintance for the meeting. People looked at him sometimes as he nodded off. He spilled his coffee on the floor, the guy sitting right there didn't even move to look. A woman walked by for her coffee and smiled at him. He said, "I gotta lot of friends here".

The only people who said hi to me were those who were new to me. A few women spoke to my acquaintance, no men, at least during the meeting.

I felt comfortable with my acquaintance. I talked to him after, I said, "I'm worried, you're nodding off". He said he'd been to the hospital for kidney stones and they gave him a morphine shot he didn't want. I didn't believe him but didn't say that. He said he was coming on 6 months totally clean and sober. I said to him, "You know it's all about your childhood, right?" He said yes he knew. I told him, "Always remember somebody cares, you are worth it, we are worth it". He said he didn't believe that. I left him thinking, this is the last place he should be. And maybe it's the last place I should be too.

Something about this whole thing is so wrong to me. I don't believe it's me. Maybe I just don't want to believe that. I refuse to revere AA. I am interested in PEOPLE and not a program.

There are two things I'm struck with about the people in AA: One, the program comes before people, even though they talk about service and giving back. And the poor sufferer out there. Two, these people can't kiss alcohol goodbye. They haven't had a drink in years or decades, but it's still a part of their life. "If I can't have booze in my life one way, I'll have it in another." That's what I think.

Course, I'm just someone with no Time, I don't commit to the wonderful program, I'm not being honest, etc.

Why can't so many see that this broken man nodding off was them?? Might have been on a different substance, but it doesn't matter. He agrees with the program, he mutters in agreement with what's being said. But so many seem so uncomfortable with him. I thought he was the most genuine person there. .

Any thoughts, Orange?       Thank you for reading

Hello Doren,

Thank you for the letter. It says a lot, and you really nailed some items. And congratulations on your decision to quit your addictions.

Yes, all of the yammering about "Let us love you until you can love yourself", is just a slogan, not what is really happening. The way that you saw them treating the guy who was nodding off tells the real story. There is no love there. Just demands for conformity.

And the way that they treated you is the same thing. They don't give unconditional love, they give conditional approval. "We will approve of you if you say what we want to hear, and believe the right things, and Work The Steps. Oh, and perform sexually when we demand it. Otherwise, flake off."

And yes, you noticed the status game of who has the most Time. That is so phony. One thing that I'm sure of, is when they get to the Pearly Gates, St. Peter is not going to ask, "Let's see now. How much sober Time do you have?"

You also noticed the constant put-downs. (How could you not notice it?) That is standard cult fare. That's how they mess with your mind. It's the second item in the Cult Test: You are always wrong.
(And the A.A. answer to that question is here.)

Again, we see that a bunch of former drinkers and dopers are not automatically good recovery counselors. Often, they are terrible counselors — not really counselors at all — just flawed people with their own agendas. And they are even occasionally mentally ill. They are not the kind of people whom you would want to trust with your life.

By the way, I'm adding this letter to the list of A.A. horror stories.

Have a good day now, and a good life.

== Orange

P.S. On re-reading your letter, I noticed a few more standard cult characteristics:

  • "We've helped you so much, but you're incorrigible".
    That is the standard cult characteristic of You Owe The Group, as well as Demands for Conformity in Thinking. You are supposed to surrender and obey them because they have supposedly helped you so much. You owe them everything.

  • I really liked this guy and the more I showed that, the worse he treated me.
    That is Members Get No Respect. They Get Abused.

  • They talk and they talk about helping and spirituality and they snub at the same time.
    That is Hypocrisy and Reversal of reality.

  • ...no one in my home group says anything much to me. If the only requirement is to stop drinking why don't they talk to me the way they did?
    That is Excommunication. When someone doesn't conform or obey, they get shunned and ostracized.

  • ...the program comes before people, even though they talk about service and giving back.
    Yes, absolutely. Again, that is Hypocrisy and Reversal of reality, as well as Ideology Over Experience, Observation, and Logic. "The Program" is important; you aren't. That is also reflected in two of the "Traditions": Tradition One says that "A.A. unity" comes first. That means that the A.A. group is more important than the people and you have to conform to the group. Tradition Twelve says "Principles before personalities", which means that their cult practices are more important than your own moral and intellectual standards, Those are not traditions — they are cult demands.

Oh well, have a good day now. And have a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    A flawed idea that AA is built upon:  The idea that a deeply flawed person
**    will cure another deeply flawed person.  A dynamic fraught with peril.
**      == Anonymous

Date: Sat, December 1, 2012 10:21 am     (Answered 4 December 2012)
From: "Doren"
Subject: Re: have a letter for your site

Thanks Orange, great comments. I've decided to stand firm in making that the last meeting I'll ever go to. I'm surprised that I've been dissatisfied with AA for years yet it's taken me so long to break away. It saddens me because there are truly decent people there but it's not worth the snubbing from those I knew.

You also have a great holidays, Doren

Hi again, Doren,

I'm not surprised at how hard it is to break away from a cult. They are very good at keeping people. That's how it works. That's how they survive. They use everything from creating self-doubts and feelings of powerlessness to guilt induction to implanting phobias to keep people from leaving. And it works.

But you are free now. Congratulations.

Have a good day, and a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**      He is the freeman whom the truth makes free,
**      and all are slaves beside.
**        ==  William Cowper (1731—1800), English poet

June 05, 2012, Tuesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 7, coming ashore to get some munchies

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 7, coming ashore to get some munchies
This family is a bit of a mystery. I don't recall having seen them before this day, but they are tame as can be. They know me, even if I don't know them. They saw me put out a pile of oats for them — the white patch in the lower left — and they are coming right for it, quite fearlessly. They know me, and they know the routine. I'm wracking my brains, trying to figure out when we got to be friends, and when they learned to trust me with their babies.

It is possible that I fed them two days earlier, here. When I look at that photo closely, I see that they might have two more babies hidden behind the others, and they might have the same head markings, and this might be the same family. But that still leaves the question of when they got to be so tame and trusting. The previous family there fled in fear when I came near, while these guys looked at me expectantly, waiting for some goodies. So when did they get to be so tame? I don't know, but I know that I've got a new family of 7 little friends.

P.S.: Now that I look back further, it seems that I first fed them two days earlier, on June 3rd, here. That still leaves the question of why they were so tame then. And I see that the first sighting of them was May 31st, here.

P.P.S. Another possible answer is that the parents know me from last year. Canada Geese are very attached to their home territories, and return to the same places year after year, especially when their homes are good places to live and raise children. So it is possible that these geese remember me feeding them last year.

The more I think about it, the more that makes sense. Earlier in the spring, a flock of very tame geese returned (here), and it was obvious that they remembered me from last year, and they were very ready to resume the feeding routine. These tame parents are probably some of them.

Canada Goose goslings

Canada Goose goslings
The Family of 7, getting some oats.

Notice how two of the children are hiding behind a parent, peeking out at me, while three are eagerly gobbling up oats. That is normal behavior. That is Mother Nature, hedging her bets. The idea is, Mother Nature doesn't like to put all of her eggs in one basket. (Pun intended.) Some of the children are born brave and adventurous, and some are born timid and hesitant and cautious. Some of the children will rush right in and get the munchies, and some will hang back, being cautious and careful. That way, somebody will always survive. If food is scarce, those who rush in and grab fast will survive, while the slow ones will starve. On the other hand, if it's a trap, the bold ones will get eaten, while the cautious ones will survive. Either way, somebody survives to become the next generation.

The interesting thing is, that behavior is inborn. I've seen families with four newly-hatched babies where two were bold, and two were cautious. The bold ones would eat right out of my hands. I'd hold out a small piece of bread, and one of the bold ones would rush right in and grab it. Then I'd hold out another piece for the hesitant ones, and they would hemm and haw and think about it, but they couldn't quite bring themselves to come forwards and take the piece. Then one of the bold ones would run in and get it. Then I could see the hesitant one thinking, "Oh shucks. I missed out. Well, the next one. I'll be brave and I'll get the next one." So I hold out another piece and the same thing happens. The cautious one can't quite bring himself to step forwards and take the bread. So a brave one gets it again. And again. Finally, the parents take the bread out of my hands and drop it in front of the cautious ones so that they get to eat too.

And that behavior is totally inborn. They are born with those personalities. They come out of the eggshell like that. It's rather amazing that somehow random twists of the DNA can even encode characteristics like boldness or caution.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters332.html#Tom_H ]

Date: Sun, November 18, 2012 6:47 pm     (Answered 22 November 2012)
From: "Tom H."
Subject: Still a mystery to me......

I am not sure who has more research material on Alcoholism and AA ... Mr. Orange or me. We both have over 12 years of personal continuous sobriety and both feel AA can be dangerous. I throw rocks at Orange, usually because of his "street revolt style" of writing but he can dodge and weave like a good pugilist and he enjoys it. ( even though he denies enjoying it)

I have a question to both Mr. Orange and myself. I "chose" a deferred prosecution program to stay out of jail. Mr. Orange entered "voluntarily" in a AA treatment program so to have a roof over his head. We were both motivated towards sobriety by a forced program. We both had to piss in a bottle or we would either end up in jail (in my case) and Terry would end up homeless again.

I dislike AA as much as Mr. Orange, but for some reason we both kept pissing in a bottle, and attending AA meetings until we reached the required program specifications. I do not have the answer for myself, but somewhere down the line, I think I was motivated physically and psychologically by force. This helped get me on the early road to permanent sobriety. There are a lot of us former drinkers that are really pissed off at having to admit we needed help. I am not talking about doing the steps and all that bullshit, as I never did them, or ever had a sponsor.

What say you, Mr. Orange ?
Just curious...............

Hello again, Tom,

The simple answer is that the so-called "treatment program" did nothing for me. The help that I needed was a dry bed and a roof over my head, and food, and medical care, and I got that from the city of Portland, and for that I am grateful.

And being around other people who were in recovery helped me to pick up some positive attitudes and feelings about recovery. You don't feel so odd or different or stigmatized when everybody around you is in recovery, and it's just a commonly-accepted fact of life.

All that the "treatment program" at the Portland Alternative Addiction Center (PAAC) did for me was teach me that a crazy cocaine-snorting, child-raping, Internet child pornographer could make good money by yammering 12-Step slogans at sick people. And I learned that "treatment centers" are some of the biggest criminal rackets in the USA. And really profitable too. Especially when they double-bill and triple-bill.

Again, I am reminded of my floor manager from the housing that I was in. I met her on the streets several years later. She told me that out of the entire group of people who were going through that housing and treatment program back then — between 100 and 200 people — I was the only one who had not relapsed. I really hoped that some other people made it; I liked some of those people. I still hope that they make it.

To assume that the so-called "treatment program" somehow helped me to get sober is the same logical fallacy as assuming that going to 12-Step meetings makes people get sober. (Confusion of Correlation and Causation.)

By the way, I quit drinking two weeks before I started the "treatment program", so it wasn't the cause of my quitting. The real reason why I quit drinking — and then quit smoking — was because I was so sick that I was dying, and my life fell apart, and I decided not to die that way.

If you want to find a reason why I quit and stayed quit, that is it: I got fed up with the pain and suffering, and chose to live better.

The truth is always that those people who choose to quit drinking and drugging, and use their will power to stay quit, will succeed, and the other people won't.

Have a good day now, and a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "So remember: if the treatment is as effective as nothing,
**       is it really a treatment?"
**        ==  "ponderingturtle", James Randi forum, 19th July 2010

[The next letter from Tom_H is here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters332.html#Lance ]

From: "lancesvw"
Subject: Orange papers
Date: Sun, November 18, 2012 10:02 pm

I find it interesting you have taken such a controversial view of a fellowship who's Primary Purpose is only to help the still suffering alcoholic. I am also amazed at the time and effort you have devoted to your "Orange Papers".

AA does not hide, is open to anyone who has a desire to stop drinking. It's financials are open to anyone who wishes to see them.

Anyone can come and go, stay or leave.

It's one of if not the most successful program to help alcoholics. The book, Alcoholics Anonymous states it is not the only solution and urges cooperation with institutions related to alcoholism.

The cofounders had there issues. In fact those issues and behaviors are things in common at least partially with a lot of alcoholics, so what.

AA offers a solution if you want it, if you don't that's OK.

I feel you have done what so many have done when trying to build a case for there own belief is take things out of context and build your case. That's OK too.

I don't buy the cult thing. I know all the stories you cite for Bill and Bob.

Again I can relate to those stories and behaviors as most people I know do. That's the point! The steps and traditions are a way to begin a lifetime of change for the better.

And finally, it's common knowledge the information contained in the "Big Book" was borrowed from many sources and people. The Bible, Emmett Fox, The Washingtonians, The Oxford Group and numerous clergy and friends of the time.

So while I appreciate your effort the battle has been fought for over 70 years and at least one solution is still there for the millions who want it.


Hello Lance,

Thanks for the letter. That is quite a recitation of standard A.A. slogans, falsehoods, logical fallacies, and propaganda.

  1. You described A.A. as,
    "a fellowship who's Primary Purpose is only to help the still suffering alcoholic."

    Sorry, but that is not true at all. At the highest levels, A.A. the corporation is only interested in self-preservation and making money. That is shown by how they sued poor Alcoholics Anonymous members in Mexico and Germany for printing and giving away their own inexpensive literature. The lawsuit was totally fraudulent: The A.A. representatives committed perjury by claiming that they had a copyright on old copy-right-expired editions of the Big Book. Perjury is lying after having taken an oath to God on the Bible to tell the truth. Not very spiritual there.

    On the lower levels, A.A. members have a variety of motives that range from sexual exploitation of newcomers to self-aggrandizement. And yes, a few members are genuinely interested in getting sober and living better lives. But nobody joins A.A. with the goal of helping others — the motivation is self-preservation.

    By the way, A.A. "Tradition 5" contradicts what you said:

    Tradition 5: Each group has but one primary purpose — to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

    There, the "primary purpose" is to "carry a message" — to proselytize for A.A. — not to "help the still suffering alcoholic". To try to equate those two things requires some very twisty word games, including the false assumption that A.A. helps alcoholics, which it doesn't.

    And what message? The message that you should practice Dr. Frank Buchman's cult religion, and that's a cure for alcohol abuse?

  2. I am also amazed at the time and effort you have devoted to your "Orange Papers".

    Well thanks. If a job is worth doing, it is worth doing right.

  3. AA does not hide, is open to anyone who has a desire to stop drinking. It's financials are open to anyone who wishes to see them.

    Does not hide? They sure hide from the truth. And they hide the truth. The A.A. headquarters keeps the historical archives sealed and locked up so that people like us cannot see the real history of A.A.

    The finances are open only so far as is required by law. As a tax-exempt non-profit corporation, they have to file Form 990, and those documents are public. But there are all kinds of problems with them, ranging from false claims of money paid to employees to mysterious over-payments.

    • Former EDP Manager for A.A. Lillianna Murphy wrote to me and said that she didn't get even half of the money that Greg Muth reported on the Form 990. So somebody else took that money home. That is criminal fraud and embezzling, you know.

    • On the other hand, Greg Muth took home $250,000 per year, and gave his lawyer friend Thomas Jasper $469,000 of A.A. funds as a going-away present. What the heck? He never explained that big gift.

    • Also see this information about the finances:

  4. Anyone can come and go, stay or leave.

    Unless they have been sentenced to A.A. meetings by a judge or parole officer or "rehab" or "treatment center" or "diversion program" or "employee assistance program" or misguided boss. The last A.A. triennial survey that asked about it revealed that 63% of the members had been sentenced, coerced, forced, or pressured into A.A. by somebody. (Look here.) That's nearly two out of three members who came into A.A. as prisoners. What a neat recruiting racket for a cult.

  5. It's one of if not the most successful program to help alcoholics.

    Actually, A.A. is a total failure, and always has been. Bill Wilson just lied about the A.A. sobriety rate, and A.A. is still doing that.

    Since you think that A.A. works, please tell me:

    What is the REAL A.A. success rate?

    Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later?
    Or even several years later?
    And how many will get their 2-year, and 5-year, and 10-year coins? Ever?
    How about 11 years and 21 years?

    No qualifiers are allowed, like, "We will only count the people who worked the program right, or we will only count the people who really tried, and kept coming back." Everybody counts. No exceptions.

    No excuses are allowed. When the doctor gives a patient penicillin, and it fails to cure the infection, the doctor doesn't get to say, "But he didn't work the program right. He didn't pray enough. He didn't surrender. He held something back in his Fifth Step." No excuses.

    So what's the actual A.A. cure rate?

    HINT: the answers are here and here and here.

  6. The book, Alcoholics Anonymous states it is not the only solution and urges cooperation with institutions related to alcoholism.

    Bill Wilson did a flip-flop on A.A. being "the only solution":

    "Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely have no monopoly."
    == the Big Book, William G. Wilson, Fwd to the 2nd Edition

    Meaning: We don't have the only solution.

    "For most cases, there is virtually no other solution."
    == the Big Book, William G. Wilson, page 43

    Meaning: There is no other solution.

    Any willing newcomer feels sure A.A. is the only safe harbor for the foundering vessel he has become.
    == Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 35.

    Meaning: There is no other solution.

    It's just a big bait-and-switch trick to get the newcomers in the door:

  7. About the "cooperation":

    Alcoholics Anonymous ... urges cooperation with institutions related to alcoholism.

    Such "cooperation" is just another recruiting trap. A.A. uses rehab centers, detox centers, treatment centers, jails, prisons, and courts as recruiting agencies. Here is the official A.A. statement on using courts to get people sentenced to A.A. meetings:

  8. The cofounders had there [sic.] issues. In fact those issues and behaviors are things in common at least partially with a lot of alcoholics, so what.

    Wow. That is some world-class minimization and denial. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

    Bill Wilson was a crazy self-aggrandizing narcissistic criminal who stole the Big Book publishing fund and the copyright of the Big Book and made A.A. support him in luxury for the rest of his life, with a beautiful home in the country and a Cadillac car and all of the money he could ever need, and a harem of mistresses. Bill was a sexual predator who used A.A. for his supply of new mistresses, and he was a pathological liar who sold Dr. Frank Buchman's heretical occult religion as a quack cure for alcoholism, and said that it worked great when it didn't, and all that you can say is that he "had some issues"? You think all alcoholics do that?

    Likewise, Dr. Bob was a crazy vicious child-abuser who forced the 31-year-old womanizing alcoholic Ernie Galbraith, A.A. Number Four, on his 17-year-old daughter Susan. You call that "some issues"? You think all alcoholics do that?

    Both Bill Wilson and Dr. Robert Smith were mentally-ill suicidal drinking-to-die alcoholics who suddenly decided that practicing Dr. Frank Buchman's pro-Nazi cult religion was the answer to all problems in life. And you call that "some issues"? You think all alcoholics do that?

  9. AA offers a solution if you want it, if you don't that's OK.

    A.A. does not offer "a solution". Practicing an old cult religion from the nineteen-thirties is not a "solution" to the problem of addictions. A.A. does not work.

    Even Dr. George E. Vaillant, who went on to become a very enthusiastic Trustee of Alcoholics Anonymous, and the biggest promoter of A.A around, wrote about A.A. treatment of alcoholism:

    Recently the Annals of Internal Medicine editorialized that "the treatment of alcoholism has not improved in any important way in twenty-five years" (Gordis 1976). Alas, I am forced to agree. Perhaps the best that can be said for our exciting treatment effort at Cambridge Hospital is that we were certainly not interfering with the normal recovery process.
    The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery, George E. Vaillant, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1983, pages 286-288.
    The same text was reprinted in Vaillant's later book, The Natural History of Alcoholism Revisited, George E. Vaillant, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1995, on pages 352-354.

    And actually, the A.A. treatment was interfering with normal spontaneous recovery, even raising the death rate in alcoholics.

  10. I feel you have done what so many have done when trying to build a case for there own belief is take things out of context and build your case. That's OK too.

    No, I do not take things out of context. We've been over this many times before. It's even listed in the Propaganda Tricks web page: Claim That Quotes Are Taken Out Of Context.

  11. I don't buy the cult thing. I know all the stories you cite for Bill and Bob.

    Well, A.A. is still a cult, no matter whether you buy it or not. Read The Cult Test. A.A. easily qualifies as a cult.

    Members of a cult always insist that they are not in a cult. "Our group isn't a cult. It's only those other weird groups that are cults. Our group has a wonderful new revelation that is the wave of the future."

    By the way, all of these lame arguments that you are making in defense of A.A. are more evidence that A.A. really is a cult.

  12. Again I can relate to those stories and behaviors as most people I know do. That's the point! The steps and traditions are a way to begin a lifetime of change for the better.

    The 12 Steps and the so-called "12 Traditions" are just practices and rules for another cult religion, not a good "way of life". Claiming that the organization/church/group has "the solution" — a panacea — "a wonderful new way to change for the better", is just another standard cult characteristic.

    Again, you are in denial, and reversing reality. A.A. does not make cruel criminals into wonderful well-behaved spiritual people. Read the horror stories for reports of what those people are doing after they join A.A. and get years of "sobriety" and become sponsors.

  13. And finally, it's common knowledge the information contained in the "Big Book" was borrowed from many sources and people. The Bible, Emmett Fox, The Washingtonians, The Oxford Group and numerous clergy and friends of the time.

    Wrong again. It's all garbage from the Oxford Group. A.A. is not from the Bible. In fact, A.A. is grossly heretical and unChristian. Read The Heresy of the Twelve Steps.

    You want something from the Bible? How about: "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John:8:32) So learn the truth, please.

    There is little or nothing in the Big Book from The Washingtonians or Emmett Fox. It's all Dr. Frank Buchman's bull. Bill Wilson even said so, repeatedly, very clearly:

    "Early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgement of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others straight from the Oxford Groups and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and nowhere else."
    == William G. Wilson, Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, page 39.

    He said, "nowhere else."

    Where did the early AAs find the material for the remaining ten Steps? Where did we learn about moral inventory, amends for harm done, turning our wills and lives over to God? Where did we learn about meditation and prayer and all the rest of it? The spiritual substance of our remaining ten Steps came straight from Dr. Bob's and my own earlier association with the Oxford Groups, as they were then led in America by that Episcopal rector, Dr. Samuel Shoemaker.
    == William G. Wilson, The Language of the Heart, page 298, published posthumously in 1988.

    Of course Bill Wilson listed Sam Shoemaker, the number two man, as the leader of the Oxford Groups because Frank Buchman was so hated for his praise of Adolf Hitler and Heinrich Himmler. That is just more deception and dishonesty.

  14. So while I appreciate your effort the battle has been fought for over 70 years and at least one solution is still there for the millions who want it.

    What battle has been fought for over 70 years? If you mean quitting drinking, people have been quitting drinking ever since the Egyptians invented beer 5000 years ago. Sobriety did not just start 70 years ago.

    And campaigns for sobriety became quite widespread and popular in England during the eighteen-hundreds, after gin was invented, and people saw first-hand the effects of excessive drinking of distilled liquors.

    You already mentioned the Washingtonians, who were sobering up people in the USA in the mid-eighteen-hundreds. And the Salvation Army published "In Darkest England and the Way Out" with their religious cure for alcohol abuse in 1890. And then there was the Keeley League, and Keswick, and the Emmanuel Society, and the Womens' Christian Temperance Union. There have been many, many sobriety societies and movements. Look here for descriptions of some of them. A.A. is nothing more than another me-too wannabe.

    If you mean the battle to foist Frank Buchman's cult religion on America, well yes, that battle has been going on for 70 years now.

    And yes, Frank Buchman's and Bill Wilson's cult religion is still available to us. So are Scientology and the Moonies and the Hari Krishnas. And Heaven's Gate, and the Branch Davidians, and even the People's Temple. Yes, there are actually surviving fragments of those crazy suicide cults still going. But I strongly recommend that you don't waste your life on such madness.

Have a good day now. And a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**       When God is planning ruin for a man, He first deprives him of his reason.
**          == Author Unknown

June 05, 2012, Tuesday: The Fernhill Wetlands

Canada Goose goslings
A Family of 4, eating oats

Great Blue Heron
Great Blue Heron

Canada Goose goslings
Two goslings, eating bread

Canada Goose goslings
Two goslings, eating bread
The reason that you don't see any bread in these pictures is because those hungry kids already ate it. I toss them pieces of bread, and they grab it and gobble it down, and then I get the camera in my hands and snap their picture, and, no bread. Now they are just looking for the next piece.

[The story of the goslings continues here.]

[ Link here = https://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters332.html#Larry_L ]

Date: Mon, November 19, 2012 10:18 am     (Answered 23 November 2012)
From: "Larry L."
Subject: I'm not an addict.

I have had problems with drugs (after being prescribed Percocet after a bad fall) and I've had stints with gambling. However, I haven't had Percs in over 2 1/2 years and haven't gambled in over a year ... without NA or GA. (Gasp!)

Your website is very comprehensive and spot on when you refer to any cultish behavior from the 12-step members. When I say I'm not an addict, that I've had PROBLEMS with drugs and gambling in the past, I'm barraged by "You are an addict! You cannot be cured!" Whether I'm cured or not is not the point. I don't feel well after drugging and feel crappy after gambling (even if I've won — it's the guilt-induced GA crap that gets to me).

GA members wax rhapsodic on the "good ol' days" when they could slam members against the wall and scream at them to "STOP GAMBLING!". This is pure hogwash, obviously and usually has the opposite effect. When you tell a child not to do something, his first reaction is to do it. It's the pink elephant theory. Don't think about a pink elephant. Go ahead, try. What are you thinking about? Let me hazard a guess...

I applaud your efforts and your eagerness to expose "The truth". It is out there.

Be well and take care of those goslings,


Hello Larry,

Thank you for the letter and the compliments. I'm glad to hear that you are doing well.

And right on. I couldn't agree more. The A.A. insistence on labeling everybody an alcoholic or an addict is just plain wrong. And it's very harmful. When you keep on calling yourself an alcoholic or an addict or a compulsive gambler, you will start to believe that you really are that thing, and that will change your behavior for the worse.

Steven Gaskin once said that the two most important words in the English language are, "I am..." And he said that you must be extremely careful about what you put after those two words. As in, "I am an alcoholic." Or, "I am a good person." You tend to become whatever you believe you are. It's almost magical, how it works.

Such labeling also tends to lead to black-and-white thinking. Like, "Either you are an alcoholic, or you aren't."     "Either you are a drug addict, or you aren't." That leaves no room for the shades of gray in the middle. I've heard from a lot of people who just drank too much for a while, and had troubles with it, and then snapped out of it and became "normal", and drank "normally". And the same goes for drug users. Heck, I also had short experiences with heroin and speed. But I wasn't an addict. Just experimenting and learning. And I learned that I didn't want that damage, and didn't need that kind of grief in my life.

Declaring that people can't ever recover is obviously wrong. People are recovering by the millions. Saying that people can never recover is just a trick to keep people from leaving the cult.

And I can't help but notice the sadistic tendencies of the people who long for the good old days when they could slam newcomers against the wall and scream at them. Twelve-step groups are often havens for very sick abusive personalities.

"Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly gratifying to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups and treatment."

— Charles Bufe

Have a good day and a good life now. And a happy holiday season.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     In my case, labeling myself an alcoholic paved the way for me to
**     take on the "addict" persona, and I got much worse before I got
**     better. After treatment, I traded in my college friends for the
**     criminal ones I met in recovery, and in turn, I gained access to
**     a variety of hard drugs.
**     That is perhaps the most disheartening aspect of 12-step recovery
**     and inpatient care: Because most of their AA colleagues are older,
**     the adolescents I met in treatment found more drug connections,
**     party buddies and rehab romances than they did mentors, counselors
**     and long-term sober friends.
**       ==  CHELSEA CARMONA — Special to The Washington Post,
**           Published: July 16, 2012 
**           Chelsea Carmona is the West Coast regional manager of the
**           Op-Ed Project, which works to bring underrepresented voices
**           into opinion writing.

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Last updated 7 March 2013.
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