Letters, We Get Mail, CCLXIV



[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#Michelle_B ]

Date: Fri, September 23, 2011 3:03 pm     (answered 26 September 2011)
From: "michelleb"
Subject: ???

Not sure what your story is. But sure don't like AA do you?

Hi Michelle,

Right, I don't like A.A. The reason is, because A.A. does more harm than good. A.A. kills more people than it saves.

If you really want to know the story, it's here, and here: How did you get to be where you are?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    There are some remedies worse than the disease.
**      ==  Publius Syrus, Maxim 301 (First Century B.C.)


Date: Thu, September 29, 2011 1:52 pm     (answered 1 October 2011)
From: "michelle b."
Subject: Re: ???

Was referring to your web page. It was about cults I think. Anywho it, AA saved my life. Or better yet helped me to save my life, keep my job, let me know that it's (life) does not revolve around me, helped me to improve my relationship with family and friends (like now I have friends).

Sorry you had such a bad experience. Have a great life and a wonderful day.

Michelle B.

Hello again, Michelle,

I'm sure that you believe that A.A. saved your life, or somehow "helped" to save your life, but fervent belief proves nothing. Belief is not evidence.

The sad facts of the matter are that alcoholics who go to A.A. do not quit drinking in any greater numbers than those other alcoholics who quit alone. A.A. just raises the death rate in alcoholics, and raises the rates of binge drinking, and arrests, and divorce, and suicide... and on and on. That is not good.

And that is the experience that I am concerned about, not my personal experiences with the 12-Step religion. (Even if they weren't particularly good.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A.A. is not a "self-help group", it's an
**     "elf-help group". You are supposed to pray
**     and beg for some invisible "Higher Power"
**     to solve all of your problems for you and grant all
**     of your wishes.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#Keith_M ]

Date: Sat, September 24, 2011 9:51 pm     (answered 27 September 2011)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: Keith M. shared a link on your Wall.

I was told these creeps consider themselves a "sober gang" and make a sport of preying sexually on newcomer women. They are based in Louisville, KY.

http://www.sickerthanmost.com/

Sicker Than Most

Hello Keith,

Thanks for the tip. I shall have to investigate that group.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The finest structure can house the worst evil.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#Sean_K ]

Date: Sun, September 25, 2011 9:53 am     (answered 27 September 2011)
From: "Sean P K."
Subject: What's the point?

Hello Sean,

The point is to get the truth out there — to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth — so that sick people who are looking for help can make informed choices.

And so that politicians who are funding so-called "rehab programs" will know what they are doing.

And so that judges and parole officers who are sending people to A.A. will know what they are doing.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools
**     have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction
**     without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently,
**     all character training and religion must be derived from faith
**     ... we need believing people."
**       ==  Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during
**           negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#Peter_F ]

Date: Sun, September 25, 2011 4:30 pm     (answered 27 September 2011)
From: "Peter F."
Subject: Though love?

I'm on HuffPo again:

Dealing with Addiction: Tough Love Means no Love

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-peter-ferentzy/dealing-with-addiction-to_b_969659.html

Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong
http://www.peterferentzy.com

Hi again, Peter,

Good for you, and thanks for the tip. And thanks for your work in publicizing the issues, and getting some sanity and common sense into the debate.

I especially like attacking the notion of "tough love". That is just a sick excuse for abusing children. Incalculable harm has been done in the name of "It's for their own good."

"Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly gratifying to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups and treatment."

— Charles Bufe

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     My enemies I can handle, but Lord save me from
**      those who would do unto me for my own good.
**        —  Agent Orange as a young hippie, 1968





July 20, 2011, Wednesday, a side trip to the Fernhill Wetlands this summer:

Canada Geese
Canada Geese at the Fernhill Wetlands

After eating a bunch of bread, they get sleepy and sit down for a nap. As you can see, they are getting to be quite tame and trusting. They now dare to lay down and go to sleep near me. A year ago, they would swim to the other side of the pond if I even approached them.


Mama Duck + ducklings
Mama Duck plus Duckling


Duckling
Her Other Duckling

[More gosling photos below, here.]





[The previous letter from Bill_N is here.]

[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#Bill_N ]

Date: Wed, September 28, 2011 4:57 am     (answered 29 September 2011)
From: "Bill N."
Subject: PLEASE ANSWER ASAP — NEED YOUR HELP

Hi Orange,

I'm sorry to make such an strident plea for your attention in the subject line but I urgently need your help with something. Over the years I've written to you about a halfway house I attended some years ago. They simply parroted the 12-step dogma and charged money for it. They're the ones who would hold you hostage in the program for 6-12-14 months at a time. They'd make us work on weekends doing free carpentry work; they're the ones who would go to court dates with you for "support," and then turn around and ask the judge to sentence you to mandatory attendance to the halfway house, making it impossible to leave. Anyway, a lot of the stuff that went on there was questionable. Of course, you couldn't complain about it at the time because they had you by the shorthairs but once I got out and started wising up I saw that it was like being in a nuthouse.

Anyway, here's the point: I managed to gain the trust and attention of a local reporter who is writing a story about Freedom House. He wants to use the Freedom of Information Act to obtain information about Freedom House. He asked me if I could think of anything he should specifically look for. I can't think of anything so I wanted to ask you: Orange, can you think of what types of info/records he should request which might demonstrate the unscrupulous behavior typical of these treatment centers? I want to get back to him ASAP, as I don't want him to lose interest. Thank you for any help you can provide.

Bill

Hello again, Bill,

It's good to hear from you. Thank you for your activism. Here is what occurs to me:

  1. Get payment records for work done. That is, worker's wages. Did workers receive minimum wage? Did the employer make the proper Social Security payments on the workers' wages? Were taxes properly withheld and paid to the state and Federal governments? Did you get a W-2 for your year of work?

  2. Were the workers' wages withheld to pay for room and board? If so, was their room and board also paid for by the city, state, or federal programs? That would amount to double-billing for room and board.

  3. If the workers are unpaid, then that is slavery, which was outlawed by the 14th Amendment to the Constitution.

    If the workers were paid, even just theoretically paid with room and board, then there should be records of the wages paid and Social Security donations that the employer made to the Federal Govt. And the workers should have gotten W-2 forms.

  4. Did these carpentry (and other) crews do any outside work that was billed to someone else? That is, the halfway house working as a contractor and doing jobs for third parties? Get those records, and compare the income to what the slave workers were paid. Also, check whether the halfway house has a contractor's license.

  5. Was the carpentry done on buildings owned by owners of the halfway house? If so, that amounts to illegally diverting funds from a non-profit corporation to another party. They can lose their non-profit status for that.

  6. Get records for cost of maintaining the properties. It is common practice to claim that it is very expensive to maintain the buildings that house the people, while in fact very little is spent to maintain the property. So-called charities will give reports to things like the United Way, explaining that a great deal was spent on maintaining the facilities, while the money really goes into the corrupt leaders' pockets. Get such reports and grant proposals that list the cost of running the halfway house.

  7. Also check for claims that a great deal of work was done to maintain the property, but the work was actually done for free by residents, who weren't paid for the work.

  8. Get real cost of food — actual money spent, and compare that to what the slave labor inmates were charged for food. — Or what was charged off to some program for feeding the inmates. If the halfway house claims that the cost of cooking the food was high, compare that to what the slave labor cook was really paid. Together, the cost of buying the food and cooking it should add up to what the workers were charged for food. Otherwise, the workers are getting cheated, and the "non-profit" is making a profit off of their slaves.

  9. Get total income of the halfway house, and find how much of that was paid to the owners and leaders.

  10. Check for campaign donations from the halfway house to the judge who sentences people to being slave labor for the halfway house. Thus, ask for records of ALL political donations made to any candidates for anything.

  11. Get billing records for treatments, if any. What medical care or "rehab treatment" was given to the residents?

  12. If the halfway house is a non-profit corporation, then check their Form 990. That is a form that all non-profits must submit to the IRS annually, giving the details of their finances. It is a public document, and you are entitled to a copy. You can also use Guidestar, among others, to get a copy:

    http://www.guidestar.org/

    But Guidestar is often a year or two behind. You should be able to get up-to-date copies of the Form 990's for all years that the "non-profit" has been operating.

  13. A list of all of the people who were kept in that "halfway house", and how many of them got sentenced to longer times on the recommendation of staff members?

  14. Do the readers have any suggestions to add?

If I think of anything else tomorrow, which I probably will, I'll send it to you.

Good luck, and have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "It is very common for vice to masquerade as virtue."
**     == U.S. Judge Dennis Jacobs,
**     of the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals of New York

Okay another:

  1. Did any of the inmates get food stamps or welfare or SSI? Did the halfway house confiscate that? If so, how was that credited against the amount billed for room and board? Credited both to the inmate, and reported to the government programs that were paying to house the inmates?


Date: Thu, September 29, 2011 4:58 am     (answered 1 October 2011)
From: "Bill N."
Subject: PLS ANSWER ASAP — NEED YOUR HELP — Thanks!

Hi Orange,

Thanks so much for mulling this one over. I appreciate anything you come up with. So far, I plan to ask the reporter to find out:

  • * how the halfway house was able to buy 3 or 4 properties in the surrounding local towns for little money;
  • * how they were immediately able to turn those residential homes into 3/4 houses where drug addicts and alcoholics live (because these days towns put up a huge stink when they find out who will be living in these facitilities); somehow FH pushed these things through;
  • * If Freedom House broke any local union laws by using residents to perform free carpentry and contractor services for free.

And whatever else you can think of ~
Thanks Terry — take good care
Bill


From: "Bill N."
Subject: thank you for your help
Date: Fri, September 30, 2011 4:48 am     (answered 1 October 2011)

Hi Orange,

Your ideas were great. Thank you very much for the great suggestions. I sent your questions and a few of my own to the reporter. We'll see what happens. When the reporter heard about the free labor, and the the way the counselors would ask judges to sentence us to the halfway house, he was appalled. That's why he decided to look into this story. That was helpful for me because I felt guilty for carrying these skeptical thoughts around with me for so long. I live near the halfway house I attended and you just don't question what they do — it's verboten.

Well, I hope you have a great weekend. Thanks again for all you do for us. I'll keep you posted on how this develops.

Bill

Okay Bill, thanks, and please keep me posted. A bunch of people are interested in this.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When Yogi Berra was asked what he thought of
**     Marilyn Monroe marrying Joe DiMaggio, he answered:
**     "It sure beats the hell out of rooming with Phil Rizzuto."





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#John_McC ]

Date: Mon, September 26, 2011 2:22 pm     (answered 30 September 2011)
From: "Facebook"
Subject: John McC. commented on your link.

John wrote: "Need to get this on "OP", AND on the "OP Forum"!"

See the comment thread
http://www.facebook.com/n/?orange.papers%2Fposts%2F196386100435153& mid=4eaea4aG25f2680eG866e19fGe&bcode=BtEmR2oA&n_m=orange%40orange-papers.info

John McC: good idea. It actually didn't occur to me to put it on the OP.


Petition to Stop Court Assignments to Faith Based Recovery Programs

http://signon.org/sign/petition-to-stop-court.fb1?source=s.fb&r;_by=931575

I just signed a petition to Governor Jerry Brown: Stop unwanted mandating of Citizens to Faith Based Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. Offer people alternatives to these 12 step meetings. Encourage Empowerment to our citizens, not a powerless faith healing antiquated institution.


Some people have commented that Gov. Jerry Brown, to whom the petition is addressed, does not actually sentence anyone to A.A. meetings. True, but he does have influence over the bureaucratic practices of the whole state.

And Gov. Brown has a history of helping to promote cult religion as a solution to drug and alcohol problems. He was a booster of Jim Jones' People's Temple cult. Look here.

And Jerry Brown's men confiscated the People's Temple church records after the mass murder/suicide in Guyana, and took them to Sacramento, and I don't know if they have ever been seen since. The big problem was that the cult had between 150 and 200 children who were wards of the state, and who had been given to Jones' Temple for care and safekeeping — which was a real money-making operation for Jones, bringing in tens of thousands of dollars per month. Jim Jones illegally took the children from California to Guyana. No California official complained or demanded that Jones bring them back. And then Jim Jones fed the children cyanide koolaid, and killed them. So Jerry Brown's crew made the records disappear.


And while we are at it, John M. added another link:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/26/jesus-or-jail-alabama-town-offers-options-for-serving-time/?hpt=hp_t2
Jesus or jail? Alabama town offers options for serving time If you're charged with a nonviolent crime in one Alabama town, you might just have the chance to pray it all away. Starting this week, under a new program called Operation ROC (Restore Our Community), local judges in Bay Minette, Alabama, will give those found guilty of misdemeanors the choice of jail or going to church for a year.

My comment was, "But what if my favorite church is Satanists For Sobriety"?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     And I'm still waiting for someone to start SFS —
**     Satanists For Sobriety — a 12-Step program where
**     there is no doubt who "Higher Power" really is.
**     Then, what I really want to know is: Will the churches
**     still let that 12-Step group meet in their basements?





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#Susan_R ]

Date: Tue, September 27, 2011 8:24 am     (answered 30 September 2011)
From: "Susan R."
Subject:

Your article sounds as if you are very angry... The pros and cons of different types of treatments can be discussed and should be... but are heard and considered more seriously if presented in a kind, civil way...

Hello Susan,

I am quite civil and reasonable when I discuss the failure of 12-Step treatment to help people. Look here:

http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-effectiveness.html

The only time I say any less-than-gentlemanly words is when I say that it is insane, and a despicable crime, to foist ineffective quack medicine on sick people and lie to them about how well the treatment really works.

And it is obviously, blatantly, wrong to do that to sick people.

How do you feel about that? Do you think that it is okay to foist ineffective quack medicine on sick people and lie to them about how well the treatment really works?

Why would somebody do that?

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     He who attempts to make others believe in means which he himself
**     despises, is a puffer; he who makes use of more means that he
**     knows to be necessary, is a quack; and he who ascribes to those
**     means a greater efficacy than his own experience warrants, is an imposter.
**         ==  John Caspar Lavater (1741—1801), Swiss theologian





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#Marcus_C ]

Date: Tue, September 27, 2011 7:49 am     (answered 30 September 2011)
From: "marcus c."
Subject: link to another OpEd article

Dear People,

I wrote another article and want to share it with you, I hope you like it!

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Brainwashing-is-Real-Part-by-Marcus-Chatfield-110926-659.html

Thanks,

Marcus

NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice, and certainly without probable cause. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse other than petitioning your elected officials and exercising your constitutional rights. Thank you. See:
https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=517
for solutions.

Hi again, Marcus,

Thanks for the link. That is quite good.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    When a judge in a court of law is forced to distinguish between
**    a free and a compelled act, he is not helped by being told by
**    either a psychoanalyst or a behaviorist that all acts are compelled.
**        ==  Willard Gaylin





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#Jeff_P ]

Date: Mon, September 26, 2011 8:06 pm     (answered 30 September 2011)
From: "Jeff P."
Subject: 12 steps

There is nothing like the 12 steps in the world. It is the furthest thing from a cult.

It is by attraction rather than promotion. There are no dues or fees. Read the 12 traditions .absolutely nothing holds like these do on the planet.Period. If you find anything .please share.

There is nothing easier to do than critique, criticize, and complain. You have your PhD in it and could teach a master class. It must be awful lonely being an atheist.

Hello Jeff,

Thank you for the recitation of cult slogans. Every single line there is just another standard 12-Step cult slogan. There isn't an original thought in there anywhere.

Now I can point you to a lot of evidence that A.A. really is a cult, starting with the Cult Test, here:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-cult.html
...but I know that your opinions will not be changed in the slightest by even a mountain of facts. Cult slogans are what you consider evidence and valid logical arguments.

You could also read my analysis of the 12 Traditions:
http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-traditions.html == The Twelve Traditions Interpreted
...but you probably won't.

You should especially look at Tradition 11, about the "attraction, not promotion" hypocrisy.

By the way, I'm not an atheist. That is yet another standard cult attack on critics. You think that everybody who disagrees with your favorite superstitions is an atheist? Not so.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "If the facts change, I'll change my opinion. What do you do, Sir?"
**       —  John Maynard Keynes





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#unnamed ]

Date: Mon, September 26, 2011 4:45 pm     (answered 30 September 2011)
From: "unnamed"
Subject: On Nurture vs. Nature and on Free Thinking Hippies being a great source of companionship on the road to abstinence

Hello again,

I have not read your response to your letter until now. At the end of August my companion of 8 years who looked almost exactly like you and was a computer programmer and was a wonderful free thinking hippie died in his sleep by my side. I felt grief that was unspeakable. I was so happy to learn from his friends how glad they were that I was with him and that I had given him the happiest years of his life. You know all the propaganda about all of us who have drunk too much being selfish, abusive, lying losers who do not merit a chance regardless of the degree of the problem ... was really getting to me. * I was infinitely happier and it gives me great peace that we did spend such wonderful moments without having him see me drunk which was an event he put up with about once a month for a few years. It still was something he hated. * Unlike you he hated doctors and had not gone to one in fifteen years. Yes once in the last month, alone and traveling I did have 3 glasses of wine. Did not enjoy it. * It turned the grief from a living honest loving thing into just a deadness inside and bitterness*. He would want me to go on. Family was very overly worried, and apprehensive and concerned so I could not display my emotions too much as they took it as a possible cue that I was on the road to get blasted. The label is hard to shake ... it was the last thing I felt like doing ... but having had a past of deep depression were I have done just that I could not fault them .

I shared with my companion your site and he was my best buddy during these two years of adjustment. He was also an advocate for your site and helped in convincing others of our position as his experience as a companion of person with a drinking problem lent him credibility.

On a more humorous note I just reviewed the email where we were discussing his chosen attire and had to laugh when I saw your photo and sent it to him. We both laughed so hard. I had to stop giving him any flack as after all ... this person I respect and has helped me dresses just the same.

I miss him ...but there are others out there that agree that this is not an incurable disease ... that our personalities are not permanently disfigured into hopeless inhumans unable to maintain loving relationships without cohersive direction from AA.

My companion was wary of doctors and was worried about my taking anti-depressants but he did not push me against it either. I had enough respect for him to bring up his need for a checkup but he was stubborn and I would never belittle him by nagging. He ate too much and enjoyed it, quit smoking thirty years ago, did the hippie drugs in his youth to satisfy his curiosity and had a Margarita once a week ... He died happy and in his sleep of sudden cardiac arrest but I know we would have wanted to live longer and I would have too. Yes after we get done handling our blatant shortcomings in terms of self-care there are other things to attend to. It is going to be lonely without him as he was my mind companion as well as heart companion.. Your site and his emails where we exchanged our thoughts will have to do. HE JUST LOVED YOUR SITE. He hated mind control and being told what to do for his own good. And no ... I managed to get him to shave his beard but would never never dare ask him to cut his hair.... a constant point of consternation for my Latin family. In the end we both won on that one. I cut his pony tail to keep it because that was his statement and I respected it. And here in the country I live a great ceremony was done by neighbors where the pray for him to get out of purgatory and lots of rosaries because they loved him just as was. Long hair and all. He never threw the I AM MORAL YOU ARE NOT ball at me. And so I heard more clearly that when I drank too much he felt left out.

Continuing our discussion ... if 3 components are needed for this condition: genetic, learning, and environment ... then I'm glad you agree ... I will keep touch with the kids whose father is an abusive alcoholic. Most people where I live quit drinking on their own. Drugs ... especially cocaine use seems to be another matter. Maybe here the stigma alienates them so much that they do not have support of family and friends. Not sure. Anyway it is good to be in a place where I can have such a positive impact on people who have given me friendship, not thrown the AA judgment battering ram down my heart. They are the companions of the heart. Their lack of education prevents them from being companions of the intellect and this will be tough but the heart does come first.

Unnamed

Hello Unnamed,

Thank you for the letter. I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your friend. It sounds like we would have gotten along great.

About all that I can say is, please keep the faith, and take care of yourself.

And have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A friend is someone who knows all about you,
**     and likes you anyway.
**       ==  Orange





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#Dan_C ]

Date: Thu, September 29, 2011 4:40 am     (answered 1 October 2011)
From: Dan C.
Subject: Too funny

Your opinion is yours & i like people who do studies to exactly fit their thoughts. Ive been clean & sober for over 21 years & 99% of what u say is actually funny. The best part is the Leave your wife & marry A.A, REALLY & where id u get or hear that ? That alone shows me that u actually know very little about the 12 steps or anything else about the programs...We in AA / NA actually love your type, we watch the stats & the stories come & go like the wind, all the new age ways to do it, new rehabs with their own dillusions on how to stay sober & miracle pills. LOL, its actually comical & we like to see it & read it as if its all a news paper comic strip. Call me in 75 years & lets see exactly where your doctrine is at, wanna bet it will be gone & not ever even remembered or discussed ? Well the 12 steps are STILL alive & well after 75 years my friend...Thats a record by the way in case u didnt know....Keep up the comedy routine we are excited to watch it all fizzle out like the rest... Have a great day & remember trust in God & clean house...

Dan.C

Hello Dan,

Thanks for the letter, and the standard cult slogans. Congratulations on your years of sobriety. You did it. Nobody held your hand and did it for you. A cult religion didn't keep you sober for 21 years.

A.A. breaking up marriages is a common problem. I just got another message from a woman who was complaining about that recently: here. Perhaps you would like to write to her and tell her that it's all in her head?

Then, the newly-single woman is fair game for sexual exploitation. Read about Mike Q's Midtown Group, and Clancy I's Pacific Group. Perhaps you will find it actually very funny.

Yes, A.A. has existed for 75 years. That makes it one of the longer-lived cults, like the Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientology, but that is nothing to brag about. That just means that A.A. is really good at the standard cult practices like deceptive recruiting and indoctrination of new members. That does not show that A.A. is a success.

Apparently, you have been around Alcoholics Anonymous for a lot of years, so you should be qualified to answer this question that no true-believer A.A. member has ever answered honestly. Can we have some of that much-ballyhooed A.A. "rigorous honesty", please? (Big Book, page 58.)

What is the REAL A.A. success rate?

Out of each 1000 newcomers to A.A., how many will pick up a one-year sobriety medallion a year later?
Or even several years later?
And how many will get their 2-year, and 5-year, and 10-year coins? Ever?
How about 11 years and 21 years?

(HINT: the answers are here.)

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     A recent review by the Cochrane Library, a health-care research group,
**     of studies on alcohol treatment conducted between 1966 and 2005 states
**     its results plainly: "No experimental studies unequivocally
**     demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or TSF [12-step facilitation]
**     approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems."
**     We're addicted to rehab. It doesn't even work., By Bankole A. Johnson,
**     Sunday, August 8, 2010
**     http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080602660.html





July 20, 2011, Wednesday, a side trip to the Fernhill Wetlands this summer:

Pelicans fishing
Dog owners have accused the geese of putting up that sign.

The family closest to the sign is two parents and their eight goslings. The goslings have almost grown to full size, and are looking an awful lot like their parents. Those parents have successfully raised eight babies without losing a single one. And they aren't the only family to do it. There is another family with eight goslings, too. It was a good year for the goslings.

The cluster of four geese in the foreground is four more almost-grown goslings from another family.

Graylag Goose
Gus the Graylag Goose

Yes, I decided to name him Gus. I like the alliteration.

shore birds
I don't know what the proper name for these little shore birds is.

The wetlands really support quite a variety of wildlife.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#Dave_W ]

Date: Thu, September 29, 2011 5:38 pm     (answered 1 October 2011)
From: dave w.
Subject: aa saved my life

Greetings,

Not sure why your web site is leaning toward anger...I have great peace in my heart today. I wonder if you are spiritually filled with humility, kindness, and gratitude?

I will pray thanks for your efforts, but who are you trying to convince? The alcoholic? Just confused.

Dave W.

Hello Dave,

No matter how convinced you are that A.A. saved your life, that is not evidence that the 12-Step routine actually works to make alcoholics quit drinking. You are simply assuming a cause-and-effect relationship where there is none. And your recitation of all of those glittering buzz words like "spiritually filled with humility, kindness, and gratitude" is better evidence that A.A. really is a mind-bending cult religion than that A.A. works to make alcoholics quit drinking.

It just doesn't matter what kind of warm and fuzzy feelings you get from your favorite religious practices — that doesn't save alcoholics from death. The reality is that A.A. does more harm than good: A.A. kills more people than it saves. And A.A. raises the rates of binge drinking, and arrests, and divorce, and suicide... and on and on.

Who am I trying to convince? I am just laying out the facts for anyone who wants to know the truth.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     If someone has cancer or diabetes or coronary disease,
**     we don't use a quack doctor to treat those sick people —
**     a quack whose only qualification is that he used to drink
**     too much alcohol or take too many drugs, and who is now
**     a member of a cult religion. But with the so-called
**     "disease" of alcoholism, the standard treatment is
**     to have former alcoholics or dopers dispensing their
**     platitudes and slogans, and insisting that "spirituality"
**     is the cure.





[ Link here = http://www.orange-papers.info/orange-letters264.html#Peter_F2 ]

Date: Fri, September 30, 2011 4:55 am     (answered 2 October 2011)
From: "Peter F."
Subject: Is Methadone Really Such a Killer?

Here's a link to a column (mine) that came out this morning:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-peter-ferentzy/is-methadone-really-such-_b_978191.html

Peter Ferentzy, PhD
Author of Dealing With Addiction — why the 20th century was wrong
http://www.peterferentzy.com

Okay, cool. Thank you Peter.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     
**     Finally, and most important, it must be remembered that abstinence
**     is a means, not an end. It is a puritanical goal that removes but
**     does not replace. It is justifiable as a treatment goal only if
**     moderate drinking is not a viable alternative and only if sight
**     is not lost of the real goal — social rehabilitation.
**         ==  A.A. Trustee Prof. Dr. George E. Vaillant,
**         The Natural History Of Alcoholism Revisited, page 277.





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Last updated 8 March 2013.
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