Letters, We Get Mail, CLXXIX

[Previous letter from Tom H. here.]

Date: Mon, June 28, 2010 8:59 pm     (answered 11 July 2010)
From: "Tom H."
Subject: Now you Really Have Me Laughing

Terrance, Terance, Terrance,

Now you really have me laughing. *LOL* So I should go and watch TV while you take care of the alcoholics and recovery site issue ? *LOL* Of course, you want me to go away and "change the channel." *LOL* Once again in one of your long winded e-mails you avoid the simple straight forward questions that don't fit your fantasy life. You did it again.

I shall ask you once again Terrance okay ?

One of your major raps when asked repeatedly over and over what is the basis of your obvious unbalanced ANGER, you refer back to your rap.... "my ANGER is at watching my friends die in AA because of the quack medicine they foist on sick, weak, vulnerable people." ( in case anyone else reads this I need to make it clear I very much dislike AA)

But we have a problem here Mr. Orange. You recently left your govt. assisted apartment after 9 years of sobriety and hit the homeless shelters. Boy, you sure have had a case of lifelong bad luck. Huh ? The reason you went back to the homeless shelters, once again, is because you do NOT HAVE ANY FRIENDS ! (and I dont care if you stayed at the homeless shelter for one week or three months) You attempted to, once again, use your typical acid rap mumbo jumbo, one sided email posting answers.... but as usual you avoid telling the truth about WHO you really are. Okay ? Catching on yet Terrance ?

You have your fantasy life of who you want people to view you as. Your fantasy is that you are more INTELLIGENT than professionals and that you are happy as a lark and have a busy life outside of your ANGER venting site here on the internet.

Your fantasy is placing yourself in your own make believe status positions of: medical expert, college professor, addiction specialist, theology expert in all religions, statistical genius, psychotherapist, and dedicated researcher. ( and yes we know about your college of hard knocks rap) That is only skimming the surface of your fantasy world you live in. You simply skirt the issue of credenialism by using the term "opinions."

Okay, back to basics again Terrance, Terrance, Terrance.... Listen up...... You are ALONE and DO NOT HAVE ANY FRIENDS ! Lets deal here with common sense and FACTS. You were once again in the homeless shelter because you are ALONE in life. So cut your "I am happy and serene fantasy rap."

You MANIPULATE your reading audience by writing about how busy you are to appear to have a real life and how this site is just a SIDE thing. *LOL* This site is your obsession and only life. ( I think in reality you want to be helpful but your mental problems show through) You continually and purposely foist your fantasy driven world on others with your time staking "research" just like Bill Wilson. And we all know how mentally unstable he was.

To the unsuspecting and casual reader you appear to be "intelligent and concerned for mankind" yet if closely examined, your site, people will see that you are mentally unbalanced and your ANGER is not just at AA but life in general. Just one conspiracy after another huh ? Pooooor Terrance.

You hide behind your computer in the name of "being anonymous." ( you are a angry bully coward) You spew out vicious insults, accusations and outright hate with your junior college analogies to medical doctors, professional therapists, ministers of faith, and anyone else that disagrees with your one sided distorted views. It ain't just AA you hate dude. Your system is very simple. You simply IGNORE anything that goes against your wanna-be status. But in the name of being some Kung-Fu Savior. (your fantasy) you just keep typing and typing and typing and typing.

This email is not about your views on AA (AA is just your cover up for your lifelong ANGER and mental instability) This is about your obvious mental issues you are foisting on desperately sick alcoholics and addicts. Just list the names of the anti AA book written by brave individuals who have the balls to go public and are not simple rappers. Some of your emails that you are responding back to are UNDERAGE confused girls. Who the fuck do you think you are to be giving out advice ? ( you avoid reality by calling it opinions) You blast AA for people giving out their opinions without credentials yet Professor Orange does the same cultlike bullshit. You revel sitting on your SELF ERECTED throne so you can condescendingly spew your lame rap and view yourself as one of the new masters of information. You are as sick as Bill Wilson and that explains your obsession with him and his quack organization. You are in your illness, very jealous of Bill Wilson and I told you that 9 years ago. You simply ignore or lie away anything that takes away your fantasy.

You keep telling people that write and question you of why you dont go public and open up real two sided communication. You have continually responded with your sissy rap, "it's my site and I can do whatever I want." Or you make false promises to do it someday. "When you feel like it." is another one of your raps. You are a failed, angry lonely man, without any friends, that lives his life through your make believe world of WHO YOU WANT TO BE IN YOUR FANTASY on your computer. This is not about the information you manically write about because those books you use for reference are what you are using to steal the credit in your lame way. You just want to take the credit and appear to be some healer. ( once again dispensing your psychological and medical "opinions".) Then you can selfishly have someone to talk to on the computer cause you are ALONE. And BINGO !......... you have put yourself in some POWER position over desperately sick alcoholics and addicts with mental issues that need professional help. Bill Wilson, like you, was in a vacillating state of anger and depression his entire life.

Listen up again Terrance, Terrance, Terrance.........YOU ARE ALONE AND DONT HAVE ANYONE and that is by your own admission of ending up in the homeless shelter once again after 9 years of sobriety. Nine years "sober." Trust me Terrance, my concern is for my sick brothers and sisters out there who suffer and I am HIGHLY suspect of your actual motives of your site. I have felt this for a long time. You cannot see this because of your instability. You are sitting alone in your room with shit hoarded up to the ceilings ( you left your govt assisted apartment "voluntarily" cause of your hoarding) endlessly typing away to desperately sick people acting as some authoritive "friend."

Come out of your secret agent orange power fantasy and prove to your reading audience who you really are. If you are really who you are you will. We shall see. *LOL* Come on guy please prove me wrong and I will apologize for my suspicions. No mumbo jumbo anymore okay ?


PS I am curious if your reading audience realizes that there is not ONE verifiable medical doctor or therapist or theologian that gives support to your site. Actually I dont even think SMART would want any connection with your site either. Something is PHONY here Terrance. I have read every letter and every word on your site and it has been for the potential protection of innocent people that suffer. And what is wrong here is we have a closeted mentally ill hoarder filled with immense anger.

Okay, now its time for angry Terrance to sit back and manipulatively write back one sided emails separating every sentence and once again trying to appear to be happy healthy and stable..... and of course.....in control.

Date: Tue, June 29, 2010 9:52 pm     (answered 11 July 2010)
From: Tom H."
Subject: Read This Immediately


Go and delete the latest e-mail from me entitled, "Now you Really Have me Laughing." That e-mail could push people into attacking your site and your motives.

Now you listen to me closely.

Even though this is lame in my amount invested in... you it is reality. I have purposely stayed on your ass for all these years for good reason.

In the beginning I even thought about investing or helping you erect a dead tree copy of your work. Check your old emails and you will see that. But your continued anger on your site you project make me think otherwise.

Now let's go back just recently okay ? You were leaving your digs in PDX and were in a jam. I felt concern for you and e-mailed you offering you some financial assistance. You accepted and gave me your name and address as you were needing to vacate your premise in short notice.

I am not writing this and acting like I am some big shot or anything of that nature. Against my wife's judgment, and others we know, who are professionals in the medical field, I sent you to the address you sent me, two twenty dollar bills. I was warned to not do that for a number of good reasons and mostly based on your ANGER you present on your site. So I did so anonymously without a return address. I have never heard from you about it even though it was a piddly amount, but every dollar helps when we are in a jam financially. I also thought if only fifty people did the same it could get you over the hump. Not a word from you back, and their was a note inside saying good luck and my full name but no address in the envelope inside. Not a word back from you. I was made fun of and told how I was hussled by a bullshit street phony.

I disagree completely. I dont think you ever received the letter and someone walked away with my/your forty bucks. ( check your old emails and you should see our communications )

If I remember correctly, I even warned you in our e-mail transactions to keep your fucking head down low and be cool and I think you wrote back and said okay. I dont remember the exact communication but that is not important at all. I have become suspicious of WHO you are Terry. Whether you realize it or not I agree with about 98% of what you write on your site. I sure as hell dont like the way you insult and piss off people and you promised me years ago you would work on your anger and try to soften it up. My concern isn't if you are rude to steppers but your safety and I dont think you practice good judgment at all in this area.

Matter of fact I think you have some serious emotional issues with anger and have for many, many years. We all have issues. How you operate your site is your business and I realize that. I think underneath it all you are kind. I also think you are a pretty honest old hippy, But I could be wrong. I also think you are alone because of the simple fact that you ended up in a homeless shelter at 63 after being sober for 9 years. That means no friends that could offer you a back bedroom or couch etc. That means no family to help old dad out. Something is wrong here Terry. Hell, I could be your best friend in the world and you dont realize it. Without meaning to I think you could end up getting your fucking head knocked off. Read that sentence five times bro, okay ?

I trusted you and you trusted me a while back when you were moving to new digs. I would NEVER, EVER bust your anonymous status.

I have nothing but sympathy and compassion for my fellow alcoholics and their welfares more than you realize. And that is the understatement of the year.

I have a plan request and fortunately I have resourses. My plan is based on TOTAL anonymous means for you and actually for me too. I feel you are a compassionate man and have nothing but good intentions for our fellow suffers but the way you express yourself in a manner of ANGER and instability that concerns me and others. Professionals do not want to be connected with you and that is reality. My concern is more for the sick, lonely people that write in and their safety as well as yours.

I have had many suggestions from licensed professionals about my concerns and they have turned me on to simple ways that could insure your anonymous status yet provide your reading audience with a secure in writing introduction from a qualified psychotherapist that you are not dangerous and have been checked out criminally. It matters not of your views of AA as a good therapist would be neutral of AA. Plus you would pick that person of your choice. Think about this.... Once again my concern is for both parties.........you... and the innocent sick people you communicate with. We are not talking about some shrinks opinion whether you are goofy with some of your radical views about AA cause we both know you are. *L* ( that is not a subject to even be discussed )

I think you owe this to mankind and you should see some of my suggestions to being valid because you spout off about "beware in AA as you dont know who the hell you are dealing with." If my memory serves me correctly, your first sponsor got busted for being a child molester. *light goes on huh ?*

Hang in there bro and let me know.

Just a couple of vets trying to make things better.

Tom H.

PS I am so thankful I served in the Army and not the Air Force cause I could have been unlucky enough to have had you next to the bunk to me. *L*

Hello again, Tom,

I don't think your first letter to me will cause people to attack me. I'll dare to print it, and take my chances.

You keep harping on my former "government-assisted housing". As I explained in the last letter, the building owners were simply clever enough to get some fat tax breaks for themselves by having documented, certified, low-income people in the building. They did not pass on the savings to us tenants. I am now paying $145 per month less for a slightly larger apartment that is not "government-assisted".

As far as me being alone in opposition to 12-Step quackery, that is obviously not true. The email flow alone tells me that. And I do occasionally get letters from medical professionals. Another one came in just before your last two letters, here.

As far as my readers financially supporting me, they have no obligation to do so and I never asked them to. I do get the occasional contribution though, and that helps to defray the cost of doing the web site.

About your letter with two $20 bills in it, I never saw it.

Again, I have to ask, if reading my web site makes you so unhappy, why don't you go do something else? Go fishing. Go for a hike in the forest. Watch an entertaining movie. Anything that will make you happier.

And then there is one thing that I really want to comment on: the idea of "having a life". It's funny how many people proclaim that other people don't have a life. Frank Buchman's Oxford Group said that people who didn't dedicate their lives to the Oxford Group were "merely existing". Jesus freaks declare that the only people who have meaningful lives are those people who jabber "Jesus" all day long. Scientologists say that ordinary people — non-Scientologists — whom they call "raw meat" — are just mindlessly reacting to painful stimuli. And so on...

Yesterday, for me, life was walking to and from the library, with several cameras, and photographing the neighborhood. I deliberately took the long way home so I could explore more of the neighborhood. I was really wowed by the towering trees. There are a bunch of large pines and oaks here.

Forest Grove, Oregon
downtown Forest Grove

Forest Grove, Oregon, neighborhood
Forest Grove neighborhood

And then I have to wonder: Isn't it incredibly odd that you can take a few buckets of coal and water and air, and throw in a few shovelfuls of dirt for minerals, and mix well, and suddenly that mixture is saying, "Wow. Look at those beautiful trees!"?

How is that possible?

So my miracle yesterday was that I saw the trees.

I get the same feeling from little goslings. You can take a goose egg, and warm it up for a month, and the next thing you know, the egg is standing up and talking to you and giving you its opinion of things. And it has strong opinions on quite a variety of subjects.

And I look at it and I ask, "How can you have so many opinions about these things? You are just an egg."

And the little guy answers, "No I'm not. I'm a little gosling now, and I know how things should be."

And all that I can do is scratch my head and wonder, "Where did that come from?"

Now I know all about DNA and encoding proteins, and all of that. But I still wonder how and where DNA encodes opinions and awareness.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     About "Security Forces", and Right-wing politicians:
**     Interesting that while they tout the importance of security cameras, and
**     watch us all 24/7, they have this horror of being filmed themselves...

Date: Tue, June 29, 2010 4:28 am     (answered 11 July 2010)
From: "Agent Banana"
Subject: Agent Banana from Scotland= Alba- Gaelic for Scotland

Keep up the good Work Bro,The Big Book "Fundies" are here in Scotland=Alba, I would not Stereo-type Everyone as a Fundementalist who reads the Big Book or trys the A.A. 12 Step"programme", I don't give a hoot how a Man or Womans stays off booze, drugs, Cigarettes etc One Day At A Time, The Problem with ANY Fundementalist The World Over ( Religous,Political, Big Book etc) is they REFUSE Point Blank to See Any other way , OTHER than the Cults Way, And that's where the problem comes from, Each Cult Group has a "STRONG" Leader, In My Language that means Control Freak, Who "runs" the Show, And you Cannot Talk or Reason with these "SPIRITUAL GIANTS", Because "god" has some how picked this man or woman out of 6,852,698,690 Human Beings who Live on This Planet of Ours to "Carry" This "Message" to us poor Unfortunates...............Bill Wilson did say one good thing in his 12 x 12 Book ......................Rule -62 for me must be the Rule of the day ........"Don't take yourself so seriously"..................I cant take these Big Book Fundementalists Seriously, But i see where they can Seriously Damage Men & Womens Health with there Non-sense & Spiritual "Solution".............A Good Friend of mine has a T-Shirt, and on it it says "YOU ARE NOT THE BOSS OF ME"..............Each Human Being Can Think Act & Feel for themselves, Without ANY Control Freak in A.A. being there FULLTIME Carer Each Day, When Men & Women attend A.A. meetings for the Very First Time, they are usually at there very lowest point in there lives, and they will allmost do anything asked of them, until they can get of the booze or drugs that are killing them, So they Can Think Act & Feel for them selves as Human Beings without Booze or Drugs etc being a Part of there Daily Lives, I met many good people in AA meetings( i have also met many good people in the Real World away from the AA "Bubble)........I Have the Strenght to Tell anyone Yes means Yes & No means No in My Life & I as an Individual get NO hassle from the AA Control Freaks or Big Book Fundies....................... I heard these Big Book Fundementalists Take The Budgies Bell out of its Cage on The Sabbath, So it can't enjoy its self............. Peace & Love to You All..............I Have a New Name here in Scotland/Alba...........

Agent Banana

p.s. check this Website out my friends........... www.aacultwatch.co.uk

Hi Banana,

Good luck with your web site.

And have a good day.

== Orange

Date: Tue, June 29, 2010 4:29 am     (answered 11 July 2010)
From: "Agent Banana"
Subject: Agent Orange

Agent Orange is the code name for one of the herbicides and defoliants used by the U.S. military in its herbicidal warfare program during the Vietnam War from 1961 to 1971. Agent Orange was given its name from the color of the orange-striped 55 US gallons (210 L) barrels in which it was shipped. It is a roughly 1:1 mixture of two phenoxyl herbicides in iso-octyl ester form, 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T).

Agent Orange was by far the most widely used of the so-called "Rainbow Herbicides" . Between 1965 and 1970 close to 12,000,000 US gallons (45,000,000 l; 10,000,000 imp gal) of Agent Orange were sprayed in Vietnam, eastern Laos and parts of Cambodia by the US military to defoliate rural/forested land, depriving guerrillas of food and cover, and as part of a general policy of forced draft urbanization by destroying the ability of peasants to support themselves in the countryside.

According to Vietnamese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 4.8 million Vietnamese people were exposed to Agent Orange, resulting in 400,000 deaths and disabilities, and 500,000 children born with birth defects...................................

From Agent Banana

Hi again, Agent Banana,

Yes, I knew about the other meaning of that Agent Orange name when I chose the pen name "Orange", and "Secret Agent Orange". There was a certain irony there. I was involved in the protest against disposing of the left-over Agent Orange here in the USA back in 1972 or so. What happened was that the U.S. Senate was appalled by the birth defects caused by Agent Orange, and they voted to cut off all funds to the U.S. Army for chemical weapons if the Army didn't stop using Agent Orange. The Army eventually stopped using the stuff — they dragged their feet, but they finally stopped — and then they had 2.75 million gallons of the stuff left over. They tried to dump it in other states, like Illinois and Texas, and there was a firestorm of protest. So they didn't dump it there. So they tried New Mexico.

Some guy who owned some old, exhausted oil wells down south of Albuquerque wanted to pour the stuff down one of his wells — for a price, of course.

Another fellow and I did a bunch of research and wrote articles for local newspapers, talking about how bad the stuff was and how it would poison the water tables — maybe all of the water tables up and down the pipeline — because the well casing was old and probably had zillions of rusted-out pinholes. There was another firestorm of protest. The state agency that had responsibility for approving the project was receiving a thousand phone calls a day, and it looked like the required public hearing on the project would turn into a riot.

Then I saw a bureaucratic finesse that amazed me. Suddenly the state agency that had to approve of the project announced that the scheduled public hearing was cancelled because there was no approved contract, so there was no need for a hearing. And, a contract could not be approved because there had been no public hearing on the subject. Everybody was scrambling to cover his own ass, and the threat to the water supply was such a hot subject that suddenly it just was not going to happen. No bureaucrat or politician was willing to risk his career by approving the dumping. Water is precious in New Mexico. Water is life. And messing with somebody else's water is a shooting offense. So the Agent Orange was not dumped in New Mexico, either.

Eventually, the Pentagon made a special incinerator ship, and burned the stuff out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, near Johnson Island.

What blew me away was the fact that there were just two young hippies, about 25 years old, working on that project in New Mexico, and we actually won. I told a friend how amazed I was that we succeeded against a lot of government momentum and power and money, and he commented, "Never underestimate the power of one man."

Or one woman. A fascinating side note is that the U.S. Senate learned how poisonous Agent Orange was from a woman doctor, Dr. Frances Oldham Kelsey, who worked for the FDA. She was given the job of analyzing Agent Orange and seeing what it really did to people, and giving a report to the U.S. Senate. When she gave her report, she didn't pull any punches or play politics. She told the U.S. Senate that the stuff was horrible, really criminally poisonous, and spraying it on civilians was a war crime. Actually, even spraying it on enemy soldiers was a war crime, too. So the U.S. Senate voted to stop the spraying.

Well, that Dr. Frances Kelsey did a little more than just stop Agent Orange spraying in Vietnam. There was a big reason why she got the job of analyzing Agent Orange. Earlier, back in 1960 to 1962, she had been the one person in the U.S. Government who stopped Thalidomide from being approved and distributed in the USA. Remember Thalidomide? That was the tranquilizer that made women produce babies without arms or legs. As an FDA official, Dr. Kelsey refused to approve Thalidomide, or to give it a positive report. She kept saying that she was hearing disturbing reports and rumors from Europe, where it had already been approved and was being distributed and used. Dr. Kelsey felt uneasy about the drug, and she wanted more tests and more information, and more investigation. She held up the approval, again and again. She said, "There was something a little different about this one so it seems better to be safe and sure." Dr. Kelsey was under a lot of pressure from the pharmaceutical companies, who were lobbying and doing everything they could to get Thalidomide approved, because they believed that they could make lots of money off of the drug. But Dr. Kelsey refused to surrender and let those corporations have their way. She held back Thalidomide for more than a year, maybe two years. Then the story of horrendous birth defects exploded in Europe, and soon, everybody in the world knew what Thalidomide really did to mothers and their babies.

One woman. Just one woman doctor who was stubborn and stuck to her guns kept huge numbers of babies from being born grossly deformed here in the USA.

In 1962, President Kennedy awarded Dr. Frances Oldham Kelsey The President's Medal for Distinguished Federal Civilian Service, the highest award that a civilian government employee could receive. She retired from the FDA in 2005, at age 90, after 45 years of service.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Today's conformity is... the retreat from controversiality.
**         ==  Herman Kahn

Date: Tue, June 29, 2010 9:00 am     (answered 11 July 2010)
From: "D. M."
Subject: Dr. Bob Smith's grandson

I just came across a mention on your letter page of the suicide of Dr. Bob Smith's grandson, and your response remarking on the pathology or neurosis of Dr. Bob extending to his grandson. I knew him pretty well, having grown up with him for twenty years. The implication that he was neurotic or dysfunctional is mistaken. If you want a little insight into him, I would be willing to discuss him with you, but I do not want it done publicly.

M. M.

Hi M.M.

Thank you for the offer, but what exactly is the point of making the truth a secret?

Millions of sick people are being told that Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob got some wonderful new cure from Heaven. That is being done publicly. The A.A. publicity machine never shuts down. Shouldn't we also publicly discuss the mental problems of those two families, and learn about the effects of many years of practicing Buchmanism?

I'm very interested in hearing what you have to say, and I can tell you that if I promise not to reveal something publicly, I will keep the promise, but I strongly object to suppressing the truth. People are dying over this stuff, and other people are suffering and not recovering as they practice Frank Buchman's religion, and they deserve to hear the truth about everything.

I also find your assertion curious: You say that Dr. Bob's grandson was not "neurotic or dysfunctional". But he committed suicide. How can that be "not disfunctional"?

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence
**     over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."
**         ==  Richard Feynman

2012.12.02: Two and a half years, and still no answer.

Date: Tue, June 29, 2010 5:56 pm     (answered 11 July 2010)
From: Trish R.
Subject: NYT Kiss-AA piece

Hey Orange,

Did you see David Brooks' op-ed piece in the 6/29 NY Times blathering about how AA works in ways science can't address? The overwhelming number of comments seem to start "I'm so&so & I've been sober x years" or just jump right in and "point out" that AA "doesn't take money" [if you don't count the treatment plans that funnel people into AA after charging anything up to $30 grand a month] and "doesn't take government help" [if you don't count courts & penitentiaries shoving people towards AA]

Anyway, it got me thinking. You have a wish list of documents, and I have one, which maybe you can address. Is there any evidence that Bill Wilson was a licensed stockbroker? [they did have licenses in the 1930s]. Did he ever even work at a brokerage house [where not all jobs require a license], or was he just selling "investments" to gullible acquaintances? Or was he an "ex-stockbroker" or "failed stockbroker" [as described in Brooks' editorial] in the same way he was a former "hardbitten atheist" — i.e., self-reported after-the-fact, to make his "conversion" seem a bigger climb?

Inquiring minds want to know!


Hi Trish,

Thanks for the letter. Yes, I did see the article by David Brooks. And was very disappointed in him. I've been reading him for years, and also watching him on PBS news. I had no idea he could be so stupid and illogical, and ignorant of the facts. The New York Times usually employs sane and intelligent people as commentators.

I tried to submit a comment, but comments were already closed. I'm suspicious. I think Brooks tipped off A.A. people so they could get in there and make a bunch of positive comments real quick, and then the comments were suddenly closed before anybody could place negative comments.

About Bill Wilson being a stock broker: That is simple. Bill Wilson was never a stock broker. He was never anything like a stock broker. Bill Wilson was never trained as a stock broker, and he was never licensed to trade stocks. He never traded stocks for anybody. Bill Wilson's statement in the Big Book that he was a stock broker was a blatant lie, just more of Bill's bragging and self-aggrandizement.

Bill Wilson was really a stock touter, and a Wall Street hustler. A stock touter is somebody who goes to rich speculators and says something like, "Buy G.E. It's going to really take off. It's going to go to the moon. Oh, and please slip me some of your winnings when my tip pays off." If you do that with enough stocks and enough speculators, you can make a living off of it. You are likely to hit some winners sooner or later.

Bill Wilson was doing that during the Roaring Twenties, when the stock market was all going up in a frenzy of "irrational exhuberance". It's easy to pick winners when everything is going up. After the Crash of 1929, Bill's game was over.

Bill Wilson also declared in one of his autobiographical stories that he got in with a bunch of Wall Street "operators" and got involved with "Ponzi schemes". That is the wrong name for the racket. What Bill Wilson really got involved with was "Pump'n'Dump" schemes.
(See PASS IT ON, pp 74-76, 85-86, and 90-91, and Bill W. by Robert Thomsen, pp 146-147, 152-153.)

How it works is:

  1. Accumulate. A gang of "operators", who are rich speculators and traders and stock manipulators, slowly accumulates a large block of the stock of a company. It may be a worthless company, or it may be just a seriously under-valued company, like G.E. was at the time. They buy slowly, to avoid inflating the price of the stock, or attracting attention. They always buy with limits on the price, so that they won't be driving the price up. When they have accumulated enough of the stock, they go on to phase 2.

  2. Pump. They pump up the price of the stock. They simultaneously publicize the stock and trade it among themselves. That is, they bribe Wall Street reporters to write positive things about the stock, and how well it is going to do. The operators also trade blocks of the stock between themselves, at higher and higher prices, and in larger and larger lots.

    For example, suppose the going price for the stock is $20. Operator "Smith" puts a block of the stock up for sale at $25. Ordinarily, nobody would buy it at that price. But Operator "Jones", a buddy of Smith, does. Then Jones puts it up for sale at $30. Smith buys it back at 30, and then resells it at 35, back to Jones, or to another member of their gang. And around and around it goes.

    All of those transactions show up on the ticker tape. That looks exciting to people who are watching the ticker tape. It looks like the stock is suddenly very hot, and is really taking off. Public interest and excitement grows. They think that the stock must be great. The operators continue trading the stock back and forth between themselves, at ever higher prices. The public jumps in and starts buying too.

  3. Dump. The operators sell their entire holdings of the grossly over-priced stock to a gullible and unsuspecting public, and laugh all of the way to the bank. The public finds that the price of their stock crashes just as soon as the pumping and the hype stops. They have been hoodwinked and taken to the cleaners, and lost their money.

Bill Wilson said that they did that with General Electric stock. He didn't say what role he played in that scam, other than recommending G.E. as a target for speculation. Bill rationalized his actions by saying that the G.E. stock went back up later, so it was okay. But he didn't say that the people who got deceived and cheated got their money back later.

That kind of a scheme is of course very illegal now.

After the Crash of 1929, Bill Wilson worked for a stock broker in Toronto, Canada, for a very short period of time. Bill investigated stocks to see whether they were worth some speculation. Again, that was a kind of touting. That was the only time that he actually worked for a brokerage house, that I know of. Again, he was not a stock broker. He didn't buy or sell stocks for anybody else. He just studied stocks, and gave his opinion. Then the broker would buy thousands of shares of the stocks that he liked the sound of, and maybe get a hundred shares for Bill too. Bill lost that job due to habitual drunkenness.

And that was Bill Wilson's entire "stock broker" career.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    "Three great forces rule the world: stupidity, fear and greed."
**       ==  Albert Einstein

P.S.: Also see this letter about David Brooks' article.

P.S.: I realize that I forgot to answer the question about Bill Wilson being a "former hardbitten atheist". That was just another fake act that Bill Wilson put on, just a bit of theatrics to make his "religious conversion" seem more miraculous. I discussed it here:

Date: Fri, July 2, 2010 7:34 am     (answered 12 July 2010)
From: "James C."
Subject: help

Hi my name is James,

I am looking for the writing of Bill Wilson that says something like "I think you are making too hard work of this slip business, why don't you try being a member first?"

Thank you in advance-

James C.

Hi James,

Thanks for the question. That is a good one. I don't know either. That sounds just like something that Bill W. would say, but I don't recall having read that.

Readers: any trivia experts know about that?

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     One day Mara, the Buddhist god of ignorance and evil, was
**     traveling through the villages of India with his attendants.
**     He saw a man doing walking meditation whose face was lit up
**     in wonder. The man had just discovered something on the ground
**     in front of him. Mara's attendants asked what that was and
**     Mara replied, "A piece of truth." "Doesn't this bother you
**     when someone finds a piece of the truth, O evil one?" his
**     attendants asked. "No," Mara replied. "Right after this they
**     usually make a belief out of it."

Date: Fri, July 2, 2010 12:42 pm     (answered 12 July 2010)
From: "Jennifer H."
Subject: Best advice?

Hi, I came across your site today after seeing a video on YouTube.

My best friend of 20 years joined AA in November 2009. She has attended meetings every day since. While I never associated her beer-drinking with alcoholism, she apparently did and decided she needed help. Of course I support her decision to better her life and health by not drinking. Unfortunately, she has completely withdrawn from me as well as her other former friends (and her husband as well), and only surrounds herself with other AA members.

I already felt something was amiss, but seeing your video and numerous references to AA as a Cult on the web has made me even more concerned.

I want to approach her in some way to help her "open her eyes" to what they are doing to her. But, I can't risk alienating her further and pushing her even more deeply into her AA ways.

What's your advice for the best SUBTLE approach to getting her researching your site and AA so that she can draw her own conclusions about the true nature of AA?

Thanks for any insight you can share,


Hi Jennifer,

Thank you for the letter and the question. I'm sorry to hear about your friend. That is just what cults do to people. It's such a common story.

What comes to mind is a trick that Steve Hassan suggested in one of his books: Criticize a different cult. Cult members immediately become very defensive and close down if you criticize their cult, but they are often more than happy to notice the defects in some other cult. ("We aren't a cult, but they sure are.") So criticize the Moonies or Hari Krishnas or Scientology. Or even Frank Buchman's Oxford Group, if she isn't too aware of the connections to Alcoholics Anonymous. You can point out what they do, things like social isolation, stupid thought-stopping slogans, irrational beliefs, goofy things that supposedly work in magical unexplainable ways, activities that monopolize most of the members' spare time, and so on. Let her notice the similarity to A.A. when she is ready, and her mind opens up just a little bit.

See "Releasing the Bonds; Empowering People To Think For Themselves", by Steve Hassan. It is described in the bibliography here. Hassan has many more techniques and tricks there. Steve speaks from experience — he spent years as a slave of the Moonies. Unfortunately, he doesn't know enough about Alcoholics Anonymous to recognize that it is also a cult. We keep trying to tell him, but no luck yet.

Also see these other letters where we discussed cults and Hassan's books:

Oh, by the way, those aren't my videos on YouTube. They are done by James and Mike and BlameDeNile.

Have a good day, and good luck.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
*    If you have to pray for some "Higher Power" or "God" to save you
*    from alcoholism, why is that called a "Self-Help Movement"?

Date: Sun, July 4, 2010 12:28 am     (answered 12 July 2010)
From: "diana c."
Subject: Article on Wired


Hi Orange,

have you seen this?

I still have to read it all, I only scrimmed it, but wanted to let you know.

I think you are cited in at least one of the comments.

Hope this finds you well,

your friend from Rome, Italy

Hi again, Diana,

Thanks for the tip. I didn't know about that one. I am surprised. Wired Magazine is usually pretty hip and savy. But not this time.

The title is:
Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don't Know How It Works.

It should have been:
Secret of AA: After 75 Years, It Still Doesn't Work.

Not coincidentally, "unexplainable, magical workings" is a standard cult characteristic.
Look here:
73. Magical, Mystical, Unexplainable Workings.
And the answer for A.A. is here:
73. Magical, Mystical, Unexplainable Workings.

I suppose I'll have to post a comment, unless some readers would like to do it for me while I get caught up on email.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "As a matter of fact, the successful worker [A.A. recruiter]
**     differs from the unsuccessful one only in being lucky about
**     his prospects. He simply hits cases who are ready and able
**     to stop at once."
**         ==  Bill Wilson, describing A.A. recruiting successes in
**          'PASS IT ON', The story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A.
**           message reached the world, page 252.

LATER: I did post a refutation of that Wired article, here.

May 18, 2009, Monday: Day 18, continued:

Willamette River and Marquam Bridge
The Willamette River, the beach and some geese, and the Marquam Bridge in the center, and the Hawthorne Bridge on the left

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

Date: Sun, July 4, 2010 5:09 am     (answered 13 July 2010)
From: "M.J."
Subject: Looking for archive of aapubliccontroversy

Hello, Orange.

First, a quick "thank you" for the tremendous service you do in painstakingly making many historical documents and facts available for all to review. If only more were willing to read and openly consider it...

You reference a site in several places on your site, aapubliccontroversy.com. (With a name like that, I wouldn't be surprised if those in A.A.'s legal offices pressured it to shut down.) Unfortunately, the site no longer is up, and I've been unable to find many key documents elsewhere online.

Might you have an idea where I could find an archive copy of aapubliccontroversy.com? Or, might you know how I could get in contact with the authors of that site?

Keep on doing all that you do,

— M.J.

Hi M.J.,

Thanks for the compliments. I don't know who the authors of the aapubliccontroversy web site were. But I think I archived the whole thing. I have a habit of doing that. There is a wonderful utility called "wget" that runs on Linux and Unix that will download an entire web site with one command. You get a mirror copy of the web site on your local computer. Everything, even if it is hundreds of megabytes, or gigabytes. You just let wget run day and night until you've got it all.

Most of my computers are still in a storage locker, and I need to save up the sheckels to pay for a crew and truck to move the rest of my stuff over to my new home. When I do, I'll search for that archive. I think I've got it. I hope I do.

Oh, and if any readers know who the authors of aapubliccontroversy were, please let me know. I'd like to mirror that web site as a historical archive. But it would be impolite to do so without their permission.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     "We are shut up in schools and college recitation rooms
**      for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a
**      bellyful of words and do not know a thing."
**         ==  Ralph Waldo Emerson

Date: Sat, July 24, 2010 5:14 pm     (answered 2 August 2010) From: "M.J."
Subject: Re: Looking for archive of aapubliccontroversy

Thanks, Orange. If you can get ahold of the creators/authors of that site, I'd be very interested in their feedback and willingness to have someone host their site. I tried finding archives of their site via the "Way Back Machine", and the site had been specifically excluded from that index via their use of a robots.txt file. Quite a shame.

Be well,

— M.J.

Okay, M.J.,

Later. And have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     During a war, news should be given out for instruction
**     rather than information.
**        ==  Joseph Goebbels

Date: Sun, July 4, 2010 9:31 am     (answered 13 July 2010)
From: "Sherp"
Subject: New York Times article.

Hi Orange,

Stanton Peele made some great comments on his blog about this. It an article touting how wonderful it is yet he contradicts himself several times, not too mention white-washes AA history.



Hi Sherp,

Thanks for the tip. We were just talking about that article, here. So Stanton Peele weighed in on the subject? Good.

Readers, Stanton Peele's web site is:

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Pens are most dangerous tools, more sharp by odds
**     Than swords, and cut more keen than whips or rods.
**         ==  John Taylor, News from Hell, Hull and Halifax

Date: Sun, July 4, 2010 3:33 pm     (answered 13 July 2010)
From: John McC.
Subject: In the end, it's just one drunk talking to another

This story was sent to you by: John McC.

In case you want to add some more "color" to your already excellent site (which I gave a "plug" for in MY response to the waste of web-space that caused the "commentary" to be printed!).

In the end, it's just one drunk talking to another

Exercise, acupuncture, self-help books, special diets, psychiatrists — nothing worked till he tried Alcoholics Anonymous.

July 4 2010

As Alcoholics Anonymous prepares to celebrate its 75th anniversary, we asked one of its members to write about the group and how he came to join. Following in the tradition of the organization, he is using his first name only.

The complete article can be viewed at: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-fleming-alcoholics-anonymous-20100704,0,4349404.story

Visit latimes.com at http://www.latimes.com

Hi John,

Thanks for the tip and the compliment.
Three pro-A.A. fluff pieces in a row — New York Times, Wired, and L.A. Times. What's up? Some kind of new campaign to revive a dying cult religion?

Oh well, have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Religion has reduced Spain to a guitar,
**     Italy to a hand-organ, and Ireland to exile.
**        ==  R. G. Ingersoll, Gov. Rollin's ... Proclamation

Date: Sat, July 24, 2010 5:23 pm
From: "John McC"
Subject: Re: In the end, it's just one drunk talking to another

Actually Orange, I was hoping that by sending the items to you, your "insightful analysis", and my "plug" for your web-site in my "comment", would tune the few critical minds that are out there ON "12-Steppism" towards the web-site. I have NO DESIRE to "revive a dying cult" as you put it, but would like to accelerate its death if it all possible.

Its not the "puff pieces" I want you to read, but the COMMENTS that follow, for you to add your own, or see your site "plugged" as it needs to be.


Date: Sat, July 24, 2010 5:25 pm     (answered Mon, July 26, 2010 1:07 pm) From: "John McC"
Subject: Re: AA and NA people

Now your response to THIS ONE is more like it! ;) Now, if we can just get more of your responses into the "publications" publishing these "puff pieces".

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. I wasn't accusing, or even hinting that you were sending or promoting puff pieces. I was just noticing that there were three such pro-AA puff pieces in a row, in the NY Times, LA Times, and Wired Magazine, all at about the same time. I was wondering if there was a concerted effort to put out a bunch of positive publicity for A.A., perhaps to coincide with their anniversary.

So thanks for the link, and you have a good day.

== Orange

From: "John McC"
Subject: Re: In the end, it's just one drunk talking to another
Date: Mon, July 26, 2010 2:02 pm

Ok-no harm done. I was hoping you had gotten the "comments" made on the "puff pieces" as well, so you could see that not all comments made on the articles were positive (especially not mine! ;). I agree that it probably DID have something to do with the 12-Step cult's "75 birthday" of "not promoting themselves".


I haven't had a chance to read the comments, yet, not on all three of those articles, but I think I'll get there.

Have a good day now.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Go put your creed into your deed,
**     Nor speak with double tongue.
**        ==  Emerson, Ode: Concord

Date: Mon, July 5, 2010 5:26 am     (answered 13 July 2010)
From: "Chris E."
Subject: If not AA then what?


Thanks for your great website.

I have suffered with an alcohol problem for 20 years and have tried many things to give up including a couple of AA meetings years ago. The thing I do not like about the AA is the fact that the Alcoholic has no control of drinking and that he/she need to turn to GOD and the 12 step program. I felt the meeting was depressing and the people there brain washed. I had nothing in common with any of them other than liking the juice and when there was a break they would drink tons of coffee and smoke themselves silly, as if replacing on addiction with another.

Any how the reason for the email is to ask through all your research what have you found that works for quitting drinking. I am off work today because I drunk too much last night and cannot drive. I hate the addiction and the control it has on me and what an A Hole it makes me. I drink normally only at the weekends because of work the next day so spend 5 days a week sober the other 2 blitzed out of my head on spirits!

So if you have any pointers or push me in the right direction I would appreciate it!



Hi Badger,

Thank you for the letter and the compliment. And yes, I have some ideas of what works. A bunch of ideas, in fact. I just reprinted the lists of things another couple of times, so I'll point you to them:

  1. the short list here

  2. the longer list here

Above all, I'd like to say that you have the power to quit and save your own life, even if it sometimes does not seem like it. You do not have to surrender your power to anybody or anything else, especially not to a "G.O.D." who is a "Group Of Drunks" or a "Higher Power" who can be anything, like a bedpan, or a motorcycle... That is obviously insane nonsense. And yes, they are a brainwashed cult.

What worked the most for me was getting the idea straight in my head that I really was going to quit drinking; this is it; no more messing around; no question about it; I would die if I didn't quit drinking. And that gave me the power. (And not to brag, it's been 9 1/2 years of sobriety now. So yes, you really can muster the power and do it.)

By the way, SMART teaches techniques for increasing motivation.

**     Recognition of your own addictions requires inner work.
**     It requires that you look clearly at the places where
**     you lose power in your life, where you are controlled
**     by external circumstances. It requires going through
**     your defenses.
**        ==  Gary Zukav, Seat of the Soul

**     "Whenever we seek to avoid the responsibility for our own
**     behavior, we do so by attempting to give that responsibility to some
**     other individual or organization or entity. But this means we then
**     give away our power to that entity."
**        ==  M. Scott Peck.

**     "When they tell you that you are powerless,
**     that just means that someone else gets the power."
**        ==  Remark of a cynic.

**     "We have the intelligence and power to change our own lives.
**     We just don't always use it."
**        ==  Me

Good luck, and have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
**     telling you that you are powerless over alcohol,
**     and that your will power is useless, is not
**     getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
**     With friends like them, you don't need any enemies.

[Next letter from Chris here

Date: Mon, July 5, 2010 7:31 am     (answered 13 July 2010)
From: "Ray S."
Subject: contributions

I remember you were taking some flack for allowing contributions via PayPal.

Guess what's new at http://www.aa.org/ ? That's right, a button for online contributions.


Hi Ray,

Thanks for the laugh. It just never ends, does it? The level of hypocrisy is unreal.

But that's what makes it a cult.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     When it is a question of money, everyone is of the same religion.
**        ==  Voltaire (1694 — 1778)

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Last updated 26 May 2013.
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