Letters, We Get Mail, CXL

Date: Sat, July 5, 2008 10:47 pm     (answered 29 August 2009)
From: elizabeth

don't know if you meant to do it but reading your website makes it sound like you have some deep seated anger with someone...maybe who went through the twelve step program? the website sounds like a rant.

Hello Elizabeth,

Yes, I do "have a resentment" — against quacks who lie to sick people about what will cure them and how well the suggested cure actually works.

I consider such behavior to be grossly immoral and despicable.

Sorry if that sounds radical, or like a rant.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Alas, reason is not effective against faith, or
**     against searches for miracles by the desperate.
**     ==  Dr. Michael B. Shimkin

Date: Fri, July 4, 2008 7:22 am     (answered 29 August 2009)
From: "Maria S."
Subject: Curiousity

I have been reading the pages of your website and am curious, have you found an "un-spiritual" solution to alcoholism? If so I would like to know about it. Is it just abstinence or is there more to it?


Hello Maria,

Thanks for the letter and the question. That word "un-spiritual" is really funny. Alcoholics Anonymous is not "spiritual", it is superstitious and heretical, and occasionally even cruel and exploitative, and my way of maintaining sobriety is not "un-spiritual", although I do not make a big deal of yammering about Higher Powers and spirituality, or claiming that a "Higher Power" will solve all of your problems for you (but only if you practice Bill Wilson's religion).

The problem with "spiritual" is that it is so hard to define. "Spiritual work" can mean a lot of different things to different people, ranging from doing yoga and meditation, to praying in church, to volunteering at a charity like Jimmy Carter's Habitat For Humanity, or caring for orphans... (For Bill Wilson, it meant necromancy, conducting séances and talking to the dead.)

As far as my method of maintaining sobriety goes, we discussed that before, here.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     So urgent on the vulgar is the necessity of believing, that
**     the fall of any system of mythology will probably be succeeded
**     by the introduction of some other mode of superstition.
**        == Edward Gibbon (1737—1794)

Date: Fri, July 4, 2008 2:17 am     (answered 29 August 2009)
From: "Christopher N."
Subject: please read and respond


My name is Chris, and I am a recovering alcoholic. You spend a lot of time accusing AA literature of double talk, using half truths, and omitting information when you do the same. You use the practice of only using small quotes from the literature that can be taken to mean different things when taken out of context. For example, you quoted in one page on your webste "Working With Others" in it you quoted excerpts which suggest when approaching a suffering alcoholic you do not mention how god or spirituality plays a role in AA's message as to not scare him away. You failed, howere, to quote the part in which it suggests that if the "new" alcoholic wants to try a different way than he may do so. "If he thinks he can do the job some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience.'' It continues "We have no monopoly on God, we merely have an approach the worked for us." There are various other instances of not giving the whole picture of the literature in your Orange Papers. Hardly the message you portrayed of AA in other pages on your site.

Hello Chris,

Thanks for the letter. The reason that I quote "small things" is because quoting the whole book, or even whole pages all of the time, is just too much. I do occasionally quote whole pages, but only when it is necessary.

But I do deal with Bill Wilson's lines about how alcoholics may try a different way if he wants to. It's a bait-and-switch trick. The strategy is to appear to the beginners and the public to be open-minded and tolerant of different opinions, and then later become dogmatic and enforce conformity.

So this:

Upon therapy for the alcoholic himself, we surely have no monopoly.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Foreword, page xxi.

and this:

We have no desire to convince anyone that there is only one way by which faith can be acquired.   ...
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, There Is A Solution, page 28.

and this:

If he thinks he can do the job some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Working With Others, page 95.

and this:

Perhaps you are not quite in sympathy with the approach we suggest. By no means do we offer it as the last word on this subject...
The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson, page 144.

eventually morphed into this:

He may rebel at the thought of a drastic house-cleaning which requires discussion with others. [Listing and confession of sins.] Do not contradict such views. Tell him you once felt as he does, but you doubt whether you would have made such progress had you not taken action.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Working With Others, page 94.

and this:

Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested [Bill Wilson's required] Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to spiritual principles [Bill Wilson's cult religion practices].
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

Bill Wilson also taught the recruiters, in chapter 7 of the Big Book, "Working With Others",

Make it plain that he is under no obligation to you...
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Working With Others, page 94.

Unless your friend wants to talk further about himself, do not wear out your welcome.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Working With Others, page 95.

If he is not interested in your solution, if he expects you to act only as a banker for his financial difficulties or a nurse for his sprees, you may have to drop him until he changes his mind. This he may do after he gets hurt some more.
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Working With Others, page 95.

It's all mind games to get another victim recruited.

That bait-and-switch trick is described in greater detail here.

I do disagree with your opinion as a whole on AA, but I do agree with you on the fact that it does have some religious undertones. I have yet to go to any religious ceremony or service where there is open sharing, cursing (at times), mixed messages, and where everything talked about is merely a suggestion. Religions claim that their teachings are fact. AA does not. It is also funny that you accuse AA of being religious, and then condemn it for not using the words Jesus Christ or mentioning Christianity. As you can plainly see by reading the book, it never mentions any specific religious idols. Allah, Budah, Moses or anything of the sort.

Some religious undertones? You just won the Understatement Of The Month Award. Talk about Minimization and Denial. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

So what if Bill Wilson's religion doesn't give "Higher Power" a specific name? So what if you are free to use Wotan or Loki or Thor or Zeuss or Golden Calf or God or Beelzebub or Satan as your "Higher Power"?

I don't "accuse A.A. of being religious". I say that it is a lying hypocritical cult religion that says that it isn't a religion.

This is the exact opposite of the truth — a reversal of reality: "Religions claim that their teachings are fact. AA does not."
A.A. true believers constantly tell me that they have the truth, and that what is in the Big Book is the truth.

Yes, I have, especially in the file on The Heresy of the 12 Steps, criticized A.A. for its avoidance of using those 5- and 6-lettered words "Jesus" or "Christ". The reason for that is because of the hypocrisy. To outsiders, A.A. appears very tolerant, and you can have any God, and A.A. is supposedly completely compatible with Christianity — even based on Christianity, they say — but if you start talking about Jesus they tell you to shut up and take it to church:
"If I wanted to hear that kind of garbage I would have gone to church."
"You are one blind fuckwit."

Also look at William Playfair's criticism, which said:

In fact, the most striking evidence of the non-Christian nature of AA is in the testimonials of its members. In Came to Believe, which we are told is a record of "the spiritual adventure of AA as experienced by individual members," not one single testimonial out of the several hundreds could clearly and unquestionably be considered Christian. Not one single reference to the God and Father of Jesus Christ or Jesus Christ, as the one and only Savior, can be found. This is especially interesting when one realizes that every other kind of testimony is recorded. Out of the millions of AA members, surely AA could have included one Christian testimony in a book filled with testimonies! If anything, this book shows an anti-Christian bias.
      Members acknowledge Allah, the Life Force, any power greater than a drunk, the AA group as a whole, etc., but never the Lord God of the Scriptures. Either the number of Christians in AA is so small as to be negligible, or AA editors have chosen to exclude Christian testimonies. I will leave it to the reader to decide for himself which explanation is the correct one.
The Useful Lie, William L. Playfair, M.D. with George Bryson, page 95.

So how is it that the A.A. headquarters just cannot bring itself to print any happy sobriety stories that talk about how devotion to the "Higher Power" Jesus Christ sobered up some alcoholics? Is A.A. really anti-Christian?

You also chose to condemn AA by quoting slogans that some people use while ignoring other slogans that are commonly used. You often refer to "Let Go, Let God" and other slogans that refer to turning your will over to god. However, you didn't mention various slogans such as "Suit up, Show up, and Grow up" or "Think Think Think" All slogans that EMPHASISE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. In almost every meeting I go to someone says something to the effect of "if I choose to drink I choose to drink, it has nothing to do with my program."

Again, all of the contradictory slogans reveal the bait-and-switch nature of the program. You can quote a slogan on either side of many subjects.

You are allegedly supposed to emphasize personal responsibility (when they want you to feel guilty and inadequate), but how can you do that when you are "powerless over people, places, and things" and "powerless over alcohol"? (Which will again make you feel weak and inadequate.)

If sobriety is really a matter of personal responsibility, why do you have to beg a Higher Power to give you sobriety? Why do you beg Higher Power to take care of your will and your life for you — Step Three?

And if sobriety is really a matter of personal responsibility, why do they say that you are being egotistical and arrogant if you claim the credit for your own sobriety?

As an insurance against "big-shot-ism", we can often check ourselves by remembering that we are today sober only by the grace of God and that any success we may be having is far more His success than ours.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, Page 92.

And the slogan that you quoted above — "if I choose to drink I choose to drink, it has nothing to do with my program" — echoes the cultish slogan "The Program is perfect, it is just the people who are imperfect."

That is the first two standard cult characteristics:

  1. The Guru and his teachings are always right.
  2. You are always wrong.

You also talk about how people are discouraged from taking medications, when in actuality in an AA prescribed pamphlet about medication it states that if probably perscribed from a certified professional whom you have been thoroughly honest with your addictions about then it is ok to take.

Again, that is a bait-and-switch trick. They may print a pamphlet that says such things — for the benefit of the ignorant public — but the reality is that lots of people are told not to take their medications, and many mentally-ill people are driven to suicide by dogmatic sponsors. What goes on inside a cult is often the exact opposite of the ideals that they espouse to the public.

You conveniently forgot the fact that many in AA and NA our ADDICTS and ALCOHOLICS, and many search for anything to escape from reality or to get a high. And therefore many try to find a lupole in sobriety by being dishonest to medical professionals to take medication.

And now you are trying to make excuses for telling people not to take their medications. So you really do it, don't you?

Your definition of AA as a cult is horrendously wrong for many other reasons. For one, you made it seem that AA was saying that if they didn't go to AA they would die. That is clearly not its message. It simply states that if you are not working a program of recovery there is a higher likelihood that you will go out and drink. And drinking for many alcoholics does lead to death.

That is more word games and minimization and denial. Again, Bill Wilson wrote:

Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested [Bill Wilson's required] Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant.
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

Also, you continually refer to alcoholism as "the myth of a disease". Thats why the American Medical Association has listed it and accepts it as a disease. I mean cause such a prominent organization is so obviously under the influence of AA's supposed propadanda (ya right). You also conveniently left out that alcoholism almost always runs in family which means it is likely genetic. But you wouldn't put that in cause that is not in line with the message your trying to portray.

The American Medical Association is a political organization that is not the final authority on medicine. They have a long history of corruption. The President of the A.M.A. who built it up into the powerful organization that it is, Morris Fishbein, was convicted of racketeering for blackmailing pharmaceutical companies into giving him money (for big expensive full-page ads in his magazine) or else his A.M.A. wouldn't endorse their medicines.

The A.M.A. has been repeatedly busted for violation of anti-trust laws and found guilty of restraint of trade and anti-competitive practices, and not just in the distant past, either. There is much more. Click on that link, and then look here.

Heck, the A.M.A. even endorsed cigarettes in the nineteen-fifties. And in the nineteen-fifties, they also bowed to political pressure from noisy alcoholics and declared that "alcoholism" was an "illness", not a disease. They didn't have any definition of that "illness" until they had a joint committee of two A.A. front groups write up a goofy "definition" in 1992. The definition that they manufactured is so twisted and illogical that they didn't even say that alcoholism is caused by drinking alcohol. The A.M.A. also did not endorse the Alcoholics Anonymous idea of alcoholism being "a spiritual disease that requires a spiritual cure", so the A.M.A. and Alcoholics Anonymous are not even talking about the same "disease".

The A.M.A. statement that "alcoholism is a disease" is meaningless and irrelevant. It was based on no research or randomized longitudinal controlled studies or real evidence at all, just politics — and the billions of dollars that can be made by treating alcoholics and addicts with 12-Step quack medicine.

About the genetic factor: I often talk about the genetic factor. We have even had some debates about it where some counselors or doctors don't believe that there is a gene for alcoholism. I am a third-generation alcoholic, so I am very familiar with the concept. But having a gene that changes how I feel about alcohol — a gene that modulates the risk of alcoholism — not causes it — does not make alcoholism a disease, not any more than my genetically-determined prematurely graying hair is a disease. The gene changes how I feel and increases the likelihood of habitual alcohol abuse or alcohol dependency developing, but I am still free to drink or not, as I choose. That isn't a disease.

Cancer is a disease. Tuberculosis is a disease. Polio is a disease. You cannot just suddenly stop having those diseases by switching from drinking alcohol to drinking ginger ale. But you can make alcoholism disappear that way. It isn't a disease.

Oh, by the way, what Bill Wilson said on the subject was:

"We AA's have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking it is not a disease entity."
Bill Wilson, speaking to the National Catholic Clergy Conference On Alcoholism, April 21, 1960, in New York.

Finally, what you wrote about AA saying tobacco is ok is wrong too. It is suggested that people who are new in recovery don't try to stop everything at once. As for the moral rightness of smoking tobacco AA never issues an opinion either way about it.

Baloney. I quit everything at once, and it is the best thing that I could possibly have done. Half of the reason that I drank too much is because I was sick and in pain from what tobacco was doing to me. It was killing me. When I quit both alcohol and tobacco, I really recovered my health. The recovery was rapid and dramatic, and the fact that I feel so much better makes it much easier for me to stay sober.

As far as A.A.'s opinions of "moral rightness of smoking tobacco", the A.A. headquarters has "no opinion" on a lot of things, including raping and molesting young girls who come to A.A. seeking help. They have no opinion, and won't do anything to stop it, because "every group is independent", and "that's an outside issue".

It also disturbed me that you used AA's illicit past as a way of discrediting what AA has done, and the good it has done. America used to have slaves, and 40 years ago it practiced segregation. Obviously, America today is a far cry from that.

What good that A.A. has done? You are assuming facts not in evidence. The harm that A.A. has done far outweighs any good that it might have done.

And A.A.'s bad behavior isn't just in the past. It's happening right now. The sexual exploitation of newcomers, driving sick people to suicide by telling them not to take their medications, pushing crazy cult religion, giving very bad advice about alcoholism and addiction and recovery, it's all happening right now, not just in 1940.

However, I will concede that Bill Wilson and Dr Bob are looked up too a little too much. For an organization that has no heirarchy it seems weird that there are some pictures of them in meeting rooms. HOWEVER, you claim that AA teaches us to praise Bill W. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Nowhere in AA does it say to praise, look up to, be grateful, thank, or even talk about Bill Wilson or Dr Bob. If people choose to do that that is there decision.

You are contradicting yourself. You just admitted that Bill and Bob are worshipped too much, and then you deny it. Of course they are worshipped too much. And Bill's scribblings in "The Big Book" are revered as a new Bible.

And you think that A.A. doesn't revere and worship Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob? What about the crowd of worshippers who do the annual pilgrimage to Akron, Ohio, on "Founders' Day"? They even worship Dr. Bob's coffee pot as if it were the Holy Grail.

Here is how they worship Saint Bill Wilson:

Bill Wilson posing for a staged "man on the bed" publicity photograph, where Bill allegedly healed the alcoholics and made them get up out of their beds, and pick up their beds and walk.

You claim to disdain AA for wanting to influence people in a cult like way, but then use comments that individuals have said and expressed ON THEIR OWN THAT IS NOT IN ANY AA APPROVED LITERATURE to condemn AA. I could go on and on, but you probably wont even have the courage to respond to this.

The real A.A. is what the members make it, not what some council in the Interchurch Building in New York City prints. Whatever is said to the newcomers, or read to the newcomers, or done to the newcomers — that's the real A.A. So is the insane nonsense that you hear in meetings, and the crazy instructions given to newcomers — that's the real A.A. too. And so is the 13th-Stepping and sexual exploitation and abuse of newcomers, and the sponsors telling sponsees not to take their medications. It's all "the real A.A.".

Trying to claim that some bad behavior isn't "the Real A.A." because it is not approved of by the A.A. headquarters is just a standard dodge. And again, remember that the A.A. headquarters has "no moral opinion" on lots of issues. You just said so. When the A.A. headquarters allows the criminal behavior to continue without interference from above, then that is The Real A.A. too.

Furthermore, the logical fallacy and debating trick that you just used can be applied to any cult religion:

"We can't really blame Jim Jones's People's Temple if some of the followers chose to worship Jim Jones as God, and drink cyanide koolaid for him. We can't blame the whole organization for the actions of a few extremist members..."

Heres hoping to a more open minded view of AA to you,


p.s. how many people in those statistics about succes rates were forced to AA by parents or courts and didnt want to stay sober, how many were just curious and weren't sure if they had a problem, how many actually came back and followed suggestions, how many had a home group, sponsor or any of that. I'm sure you'd find a much higher success rate in those that came in with an honest desire to stop and actually stuck with the program. AA never claimed that you show up once and are cured

Now you are just trying to make excuses for the terrible A.A. failure rate. There are no excuses. Either A.A. makes alcoholics quit drinking, or it doesn't. And because it doesn't, A.A. has no good reason for existing.

Claiming that A.A. is not due any blame because the alcoholics didn't want to quit drinking is just another dodge. Obviously then, A.A. is also not due any credit if some other alcoholics did wish to quit drinking, and then really did it.

The ones who do want to quit drinking do, and the ones who don't want to quit drinking don't.

That has nothing to do with Alcoholics Anonymous or the 12 Steps or "Higher Power" or Buchmanism or Bill Wilson or any of the rest of that bunk.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Action and faith enslave thought, both of them in order not to be
**     troubled or inconvenienced by reflection, criticism, and doubt.
**        ==  Henri Frédéric Amiel (1821—1881)

Date: Wed, July 9, 2008 3:23 pm     (answered Thu, July 10, 2008 12:21 pm)
From: "Cara J."
Subject: Hi


I would just like to say well done on your site and on scoring a flame award on Rick Ross.

I haven't had any experience with AA. I am a cult activist against meditation and yoga cults, particularly Science of Identity. I got a flame award as well for writing about the idiot himself supporting trolls and cult apologists. Having anything to do with that place literally threatened my life since I was not in the best state of mind having recently left the cult and not thinking that the people there would be completely fake. It got up his nose that I wrote about it, but like his 'report' of what was on your site he took extreme liberties with the truth, and it has actually been the only active link we have gotten from his site for a very very long time.

I very much admire what you are doing and I make sure to tell anyone who is going or thinking about going to AA to check out your site.

Something which maybe I haven't seen yet or I thought that you might be interested in is the forced attendance of AA in prison. My brother has been in jail a few times, he does have a problem with alcohol and drug use and everytime that he is in there he has been made to go to AA meetings, which considering the authorities responsible for facilitating these meetings appears very strongly to legitimise this cult. I am having the same argument with the council over here (in Australia) for opening up meditation and yoga classes for health, even though they are indoctrination. All the rehab he has gone into and been made to do has had no positive effect, that is for sure.

If you were interested I could talk to my brother and get some details from him about how it works in there, and I would be happy to help out in anyway that I could, so please feel free to drop me a line anytime and just ask.


Cara (www.cultofbutler.com)

Hi Cara,

Thanks for the note and all of the compliments.

Yes, I'm interested in more stories about compulsory A.A. in prisons or jails. It's both morally wrong and not helpful.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
** "Now I know what it's like to be high on life.
** It isn't as good, but my driving has improved."
** == Nina, on "Just Shoot Me", 13 Jan 2006.

Date: Tue, July 8, 2008 10:31 pm     (answered 29 August 2009)
From: "Kelly H."
Subject: I was researching Bill W.'s hallucinogenic stuff and came across your website...

Wow man... You just shook my AA-ness. I can understand why you wouldn't give your name on your website. I can see some pissed off not-so-sober AA's hunting you down or something. I'm curious, and I suppose this is because according to you I am an indoctrinated cult member. So, if this isn't THE answer, as you point out, are you sober? and if so, how do you do it? I mean, I go because it works for me and its the best thing I've found...Despite the Christian-centered, male-centered doctrine it spouts...

I was looking up Bill W.'s use of hallucinogens because I wanted to know why and how he did them and I was considering doing mushrooms to facilitate a search for a totem animal. 100 psilocybin sprouted in the small patch of grass in front of my apartment the other night and no one elses, and the next day I got a random email from johns hopkins on the benefits of psilocybin. I don't believe in coincidences... However, I surely got a lot more than what I was searching for. Yeah I have almost 3 years sober, from any substance, I might add. I've never done mushrooms before...

So anyways yeah, what do you do that is so much better than AA that you get to trash it? If you have a better way, I'm all ears. seriously. I've known people who were saved by churches, cults etc. What do you do?

Kelly H.

Hello Kelly,

Thanks for the letter. Sorry to take so long to answer it. Sometimes I get extremely backlogged in answered email.

Well, first off, I was never hiding from the 12-Step fanatics by staying anonymous. They weren't my worry. It was more a matter of living in a building that was owned and managed by a corporation that also makes a ton of money by selling quack medicine and 12-Step fraud, paid for by city, state, and Federal funds. And they have a reputation for being vindictive and kicking people out onto the streets with fraudulently contaminated urinalysis tests and things like that. But that's all in the past, and I don't live there any more. So I have no need to be anonymous. My birth name is Terrance Hodgins, and I live in Portland, Oregon.

I don't have "a way" to stay sober. That is a piece of garbage that Bill Wilson sold the suckers — the idea that you cannot quit drinking on your own, and you must have "a program" to stay sober. That's nonsense. I don't have any program. I just decided that I wasn't going to die that way, and that's that. I haven't been to a meeting, any kind of meeting, A.A. or SMART, in many years.

So what's "my way" of staying sober? Well, just don't take that first drink, no matter what. Also, don't smoke a cigarette, no matter what. And I also don't take any drugs, either. I don't take anything except what the doctor gives me, and there is nothing exciting there. The only prescription drug in the whole mess of things that I take is just Ranitidine to reduce stomach acid. You can't get high on the stuff. Beyond that, I take lots of vitamins and minerals. But you don't get high on them either. But they do help to improve your health, and in the long run they make you feel better.

I joke that my daily meeting is with the geese. I go down to the waterfront and feed the geese often, especially in the spring when there are cute little fluff-ball goslings and ducklings all over the place. Now the babies are almost as big as the adults, and have feathers, and you have to look closely to tell them apart from adults. I still went and fed them again today, even if they aren't cute yellow fluff-balls any more. They still like to eat.

Then I just do the usual things that other people do. Clean the house, go shopping, go to the library, and occasionally answer some email. It's just life, and it goes on.

I just decided that I'm not going to kill myself with alcohol or tobacco. Period. End of story.

I also wrote up another description of "a way" to quit drinking just a while ago, here. You might want to check that out.

About the mushrooms: Be extremely careful there. Make absolutely certain that they really are psilocybin mushrooms. If you get the wrong mushrooms, they can kill you. Don't go confusing Psilocybin with Amanita, or anything like that. Among other things, the stem should stain blue when you break or bruise it.

If you must try a psychedelic voyage, psilocybin mushrooms are a good way to go. I got the best results from combining meditation with mushrooms. Sit quietly in a beautiful place and let it happen.

Have a good day, and a good life.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     We youths say "like" all the time because we mistrust
**     reality. It takes a certain commitment to say something
**     is. Inserting "like" gives you a bit more running room.
**        ==  James Kunen

May 15, 2009, Friday: Day 15, continued:

Canada Geese, gander + gosling
One of the fathers with one of his kids, checking me out while I feed the goslings. I think this is one of the "family of 9" fathers. He has been munching some rice himself, and some is stuck to his beak.

[The story of Carmen continues here.]

Date: Tue, July 8, 2008 7:04 pm     (answered 29 August 2009)
From: "s m."
Subject: susan cheever's book on bill w.

If you ever get a chance, you might want to read the end of her biography of bill wilson. According to one report, the great cult leader on his deathbed wanted badly to drink. The fact that he died in a painful manner as a direct result of a tobacco addiction speaks volumes, even if the part of him pleading for a drink of alcohol to the nurse who tended to him before his death is untrue. .

Love the site, seems incomplete without that tidbit of info.

The most important thing your site makes clear is that A.A. starts off in their book with a deliberate big fat lie regarding their success rate. IMO, forcing A.A. on many problem drinkers makes them worse off than if they never knew about A.A. and were given help in any another way.

science may one day find a way, but if a.a. has their way, we'd never hear about it. eg, the drug trazedone prescribed for adult problem drinkers when they first quit. the a.a. treatment industry has shoved this under the carpet by doing a discrediting fake study on dually addicted teenagers.

s m.
west palm beach, fl

Hi S.M.,

Thanks for the note. We have been having fun discussing Bill Wilson's screaming for whiskey on his deathbed. Look here, and here, and here.

But you know, what I consider far more important than the deathbed story are the stories that Bill Wilson never got more than a year of sobriety. Some of the oldtimers say that Bill Wilson was relapsing all of the time. That's what I really want to know about.

That would mean that Bill Wilson on his deathbed screaming at his nurse for whiskey was merely his last attempt at relapse, not his first. And it wouldn't have been his first drink in 37 years, but rather, just his first in less than a year.

I had not heard of trazedone before. I'll have to check that out.

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     Dishonesty is the raw material not of quacks only,
**     but also in great part of dupes.
**        ==  Thomas Carlyle Count Cagliostro, 1833.

Date: Fri, July 11, 2008 8:12 am     (answered 30 August 2009)
From: lorie
Subject: Roland Hazard in Europe 1931

Hi Orange,

Not sure if still of interest to you:

On Ancestry.com there is a NY passenger ship manifest showing Roland Hazard arriving from France on 9/2/31.

Hi Lorie,

Thanks for the letter. Yes, that is still of interest to me. We are still trying to nail down exactly when Rowland Hazard saw Carl Jung, and how many times. Cora Finch has been researching that.

Thank you for your work in exposing what AA has become — distorted and nothing like the orginal program found to help many who lost control of their drinking. In spite of the Judeo Christian leanings in AA there is an ancient and helpful concept that there is a part of us that is part of something bigger we will never know. This actually has roots in Gnosticism if it were to be labeled — most of them were slaughtered by the early "Christians" due to their perspective that we are all Gods. And in recent years slaughtered, figuratively, in AA — it's simply too much responsibilty for most people.

The steps are a way to become conscious of that creative and observing aspect of ourselves and opens up a new world that is inhabitable and actually filled with joy — and suffering. But even the suffering can be endured because it is poignant — bitter sweet.

I really doubt if the Steps have any such effects. More likely, inducing enough guilt to drive some people to suicide.

I wanted to share with you a different perspective of the 12 step experience — an esoteric experience lost to most.

But if it's "an esoteric experience lost to most", then that means that very few people get the experience from practicing the 12 Steps, so it is fair to conclude that the 12 Steps don't actually cause the happy experience — something else does.


You have a good day too.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    A psychiatrist is a fellow who asks you a lot of
**    expensive questions your wife asks for nothing.
**       ==  Joey Adams

Date: Sun, July 13, 2008 12:33 am     (answered 30 August 2009)
From: "Mark C. R."

re: your AA experience

dood it doesn't sound like an AA meeting to me. We don't have counselors. We also don't do group therapy. Is it possible you went to a treatment meeting? Those are often run by people but they are not really AA meetings. The message of 12 step groups varies from area to area. I suggest take a small tour and go to other places.

Hello Mark,

Thanks for the letter. I know the difference between 12-Step-based treatment centers and the A.A. meeting down the street, and I've been to both. I also know that they have overlapping memberships, and in fact, most of the counselors have a conflict of interest problem in that they are selling their own 12-Step religion as a cure for alcoholism.

Myself, I don't believe in God so I don't understand your cult aspect of AA insinuations.

Whether A.A. is a cult has nothing to do with whether you are an atheist.

ahh well if you would like to debate it further send me a reply:)


BTW in November 08 i will be celebrating 20 years clean and sober thanks to AA which it seems you clearly misunderstand! ==it worked good for me:) i just followed the pgm and yes i got a lot of meetings prolly 2 a week or so

Congratulations on your 20 years. Of course, those 20 years do not indicate that A.A. works to make alcoholics quit drinking. Those 20 years just mean that you chose to quit drinking 20 years ago.

"Following the program" is irrelevant.

  1. The vast majority of people who "follow the program" do not quit drinking.
  2. The vast majority of people who successfully quit drinking do not "follow the program".

With numbers like that, the logical conclusion is that the best thing to do to quit drinking is do not work the A.A. program. Do you understand that?

Have a good day.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    Carl Sagan's rule: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
**    The far-fetched claims of Bill Wilson that Frank Buchman's
**    cult religion could cure alcoholism have not been backed
**    up by even a little ordinary evidence, never mind some
**    extraordinary evidence.

Date: Mon, July 14, 2008 8:31 am     (answered 30 August 2009)
From: "Andy M."

Hi Orange

I noticed at the top of your wish list a request for more information about the statement attributed to Bill Wilson that AAs had never claimed that alcoholism was a disease entity. I came across this link which suggests it was part of a discussion with Catholic clergy. I hope this is some help and perhaps the people running the site might be able to help you further with reference to the original document it is taken from:

Best wishes
Andy M

Hello Andy,

Thank you for the link.

Date: Mon, July 14, 2008 8:39 am     (answered 30 August 2009)
From: "Andy M."
Subject: Wish list (alcoholism not a disease entity)

I haven't studied that transcript closely myself yet, but one thing jumped out straightaway — the claim by Wilson that he was stone cold sober when he had his "spiritual awakening". He didn't bother to mention that he was on a mind-bending cocktail of hallucinogenic drugs, did he?

Aw shucks, do we have to mention a trivial detail like that? Never mind the fact that belladonna is more kick-ass than LSD when it comes to making people hallucinate... :-)

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**  "We AA's have never called alcoholism a disease because, technically
**   speaking it is not a disease entity."
**      ==  Bill Wilson,
**      speaking to the National Catholic Clergy Conference On Alcoholism,
**           April 21, 1960, in New York

Date: Mon, July 21, 2008 6:10 am     (answered 30 August 2009)
From: "Monty M. W."
Subject: What!!?

One jacket does not fit all. And what you have written that I caught on line is absurd!! I was sober for 5 years and failed because I did not use the 12 step program of AA. What Bill did in his past is in the past and I would never think of doing such things. I do not pass judgment on Bill W. nor do I pass judgment on you for writing what you did. If you, Bill, anyone or myself is to be judged is in the hands of God in which I am a strong believer of Jesus Christ. You can come up with all the big vocabulary and write a book does not make it so. However if it benefits someone to better them selves then let it go. Your opinion can influence others to stay away from AA and in my mind you could be killing a life instead of saving one. Be careful what you write. I do not want you to think I am a supporter of censorship but I am definitely a believer of saving lives. Please contact me if you would like. Remember we are all human just as Bill & Dr. Bob are and we do make mistakes. Let's let God do the judging and move on to being better Men & Women.

Thank you for your time.

Respectfully Monty

Hello Monty,

Thanks for the letter.

Wow. You have managed to pack a large number of false assumptions and logical fallacies into a small space.

  1. First off, I'm not buying your statement that you resumed drinking because you didn't do the 12 Steps properly. That is a false assumption that is backed up by zero evidence.
    1. The vast majority of people who "follow the program" and practice the 12 Steps do not quit drinking.
    2. The vast majority of people who successfully quit drinking do not "follow the program" or "properly do the 12 Steps".

    So what was the real reason why you resumed drinking alcohol? (Try reading the web page about The Lizard-Brain Addiction Monster and see if that doesn't remind you of something.)

  2. This is a truism:
    "What Bill did in his past is in the past".
    That line is just an attempt to dismiss facts because they are old. That is bad logic. What Bill Wilson did in the past is still hurting people now, so it isn't just in the past.

  3. Trying to claim that only God should judge Bill Wilson is a bunch of bull.
    "I do not pass judgment on Bill W. nor do I pass judgment on you for writing what you did. If you, Bill, anyone or myself is to be judged is in the hands of God in which I am a strong believer of Jesus Christ."
    That's no different than saying that we should not judge Rev. Jim Jones or David Koresh or L. Ron Hubbard or Marshall Herff Applewhite or Swami Prabhupada. We had better judge them, and learn from their crimes, or else we will have more such deceivers killing people.

    For that matter, should we also not judge Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Joseph Stalin, or Mao Tse-Tung? Where do we draw the line? Who is immune from judgement, and who should get judged?

  4. This is unabashed anti-intellectualism, and just a dodge:
    "You can come up with all the big vocabulary and write a book does not make it so."
    You have provided zero evidence that what I have written is in error.

  5. Then you wrote:
    "However if it benefits someone to better them selves then let it go."
    That is a giant IF. You have provided no evidence that A.A. has done anything good, or benefitted anybody. Promoting old cult religion as a cure for alcoholism does not help people.

  6. Then you said,
    "Your opinion can influence others to stay away from AA and in my mind you could be killing a life instead of saving one. Be careful what you write."
    And that is the standard often-repeated claim that I should not tell the truth because it might hurt some imaginary alcoholic who just can't handle the truth. Steppers have used that attack so many times. Look here for the list.

    You are also assuming that sending alcoholics to Alcoholics Anonymous helps them, rather than hurts them and drives them to relapse or suicide. The evidence is that A.A. does not help the alcoholics; rather, it:

    1. raises the rate of binge drinking, and
    2. raises the rate of rearrests, and
    3. increases the costs of hospitalization later, and
    4. raises the death rate in alcoholics.

  7. Your next line really is a veiled appeal for censorship, in spite of the denial beforehand:
    "I do not want you to think I am a supporter of censorship but I am definitely a believer of saving lives."
    You have provided no evidence that not telling the truth saves the lives of alcoholics.

  8. And this is again just a dodge, and an appeal to not tell the truth, and not criticize frauds, quacks, and con artists:
    "Remember we are all human just as Bill & Dr. Bob are and we do make mistakes. Let's let God do the judging and move on to being better Men & Women."
    Yes, we are all human, but that is no excuse for not telling the truth about what is going on. That is also no excuse for not recognizing that Bill Wilson was a fraud who sold quackery and cult religion as a cure for alcoholism.

    Bill Wilson was also a very sick, mentally-ill man who was not qualified to tell anyone how to live. So was Dr. Bob.

Oh well, have a good day anyway.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**    True religion extends alike to the intellect and the heart.
**    Intellect is in vain if it lead not to emotion, and emotion
**    is vain if not enlightened by intellect; and both are vain
**    if not guided by truth and leading to duty.
**      ==  Tryon Edwards

Date: Mon, July 21, 2008 3:56 pm     (answered 31 August 2009)
From: "C K"
Subject: Thanks!

I was looking for a quote from the Big Book to send to a sober mate, and your site came up first!!

Thanks for being so useful!!


Hi CK,

Thanks for the thanks, and you have a good day too.

== Orange

*             [email protected]        *
*         AA and Recovery Cult Debunking      *
*          http://www.Orange-Papers.org/      *
**     The wisdom of the wise and the experience of the age
**     are perpetuated by quotations.
**         ==  Benjamin Desraeli  (1804—1881)

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